Too Many CMDRs, Not Enough Ensigns

[ZapBrannigan]

A big problem in the movies is that the TV supporting actors all had to be back on the bridge, but as older personnel they needed more rank so they wouldn't look like failures.

Hence you've got a starship bridge staffed by Cmdr Uhura, Cmdr Sulu, Cmdr Chekov... And even at that lofty rank, they're still manning consoles as functionaries and pushing the buttons Kirk tells them to push. What else can they do?

If it were 1978 and I was in charge, I would seriously consider offering very brief cameo appearances at most to the "legacy" supporting cast. Then I'd give Kirk and Spock new, young subordinates to man the bridge.

That would be more realistic in two ways: you wouldn't have a crowd of faux "commanders" taking orders rather than giving them, and you wouldn't have such a number of officers sitting in the same bridge positions ten years after the TV series as if frozen in amber.

 

[drt]

I think it only starts to be noticeable by the time of TFF and TUC.

In TMP: Sulu, Uhura and Checkov have only advanced one grade
TWOK: Sulu and Uhura seem to be more "along for the ride" than full-time members of the crew
TSFS/TVH: continuation of previous events

I suppose one could make the arguement that participating in the TSFS, while cleared of charges, did end up stalling their careers, explaining their positions in TFF.

 

[C.E. Evans]

It seemed as if the Enterprise-A was a special case and that it was more of an issue of keeping "Kirk's gang" together, maybe even as a PR thing in the aftermath of the Whalesong Incident.

 

[FormerLurker]

Which also capably explains why, with the exception of Sulu, who has his own command, exactly that same group is still together in TUC. Bringing/keeping them all together for "events" like escorting the Klingon Ambassador to Earth would be just up their alley.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

It seemed as if the Enterprise-A was a special case and that it was more of an issue of keeping "Kirk's gang" together, maybe even as a PR thing in the aftermath of the Whalesong Incident.

Which also capably explains why, with the exception of Sulu, who has his own command, exactly that same group is still together in TUC. Bringing/keeping them all together for "events" like escorting the Klingon Ambassador to Earth would be just up their alley.

That works as a rationalization, but it's still unfortunate from an action-adventure standpoint. I mean, the captain of a big ship is supposed to be "the old man," so Kirk and Spock are fine.

But the Enterprise wasn't conceived as a parade float for aging veterans. Retaining so much legacy cast (to say nothing of rusty actors who felt they had to puff up their chests and knock every line of dialog out of the park just to get noticed) really hurt the Classic Cast movies. TNG faired a little better on the histrionics but still suffered from title/rank inflation among supporting roles.

 

[ATimson]

TNG faired a little better on the histrionics but still suffered from title/rank inflation among supporting roles.

Are you thinking of just the TNG movies, or the series too? Worf's the only one to get a promotion after "All Good Things", until the very end of Nemesis.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Are you thinking of just the TNG movies, or the series too? Worf's the only one to get a promotion after "All Good Things", until the very end of Nemesis.

Well, I didn't go back and do the math on that question. And I have (thankfully) no memory of the end of Nemesis. But it seemed like nearly everyone in the TNG films who wasn't the captain was a commander. It was Star Trek's rank of choice, apparently.

 

[Marc]

Are you thinking of just the TNG movies, or the series too? Worf's the only one to get a promotion after "All Good Things", until the very end of Nemesis.

Well, I didn't go back and do the math on that question. And I have (thankfully) no memory of the end of Nemesis. But it seemed like nearly everyone in the TNG films who wasn't the captain was a commander. It was Star Trek's rank of choice, apparently.

Well Dr Crusher had commanders pips from the get-go and pretty much stayed that way. Troi went from Lt Cmdr to Cmdr in the last season and entire episode resolved around that.

Geordi moved up but he also moved up in responsiblity going from helm to chief engineer and Data was a Lt. Cmdr to start with.

But then the cast are portrayed as senior on officers on large starship, Sure on a smaller starship you'd have a Lt Cmdr as first office, an Lt as chief engineer just as you would on a smaller navy ship. However you generally wouldn't find a Lt. Cmdr as XO on an aircraft carrier or an Lt in charge of the nuclear reactor (well on than a duty shift).

They were also department heads and as such would be involved in decision making.

The only position that might have normally been occupied by a lower rank would to replace Data at OPs but lets face it - why put some-one less capable there. Same as Spock was the science officer & first office under Kirk. Sure a junior officer could have been stationed there but unless they were Vulcan, would they have been as good?

 

[Commishsleer]

It seemed as if the Enterprise-A was a special case and that it was more of an issue of keeping "Kirk's gang" together, maybe even as a PR thing in the aftermath of the Whalesong Incident.

Which also capably explains why, with the exception of Sulu, who has his own command, exactly that same group is still together in TUC. Bringing/keeping them all together for "events" like escorting the Klingon Ambassador to Earth would be just up their alley.

That works as a rationalization, but it's still unfortunate from an action-adventure standpoint. I mean, the captain of a big ship is supposed to be "the old man," so Kirk and Spock are fine.

But the Enterprise wasn't conceived as a parade float for aging veterans. Retaining so much legacy cast (to say nothing of rusty actors who felt they had to puff up their chests and knock every line of dialog out of the park just to get noticed) really hurt the Classic Cast movies. TNG faired a little better on the histrionics but still suffered from title/rank inflation among supporting roles.

in TWOK and TSFS and TVH the senior officers weren't assigned to the Enterprise except for the 'training run'. It was just a training vessel with Spock in charge. The others were training supervisors.

And as someone else said maybe in STV they've been rewarded with a ship because they've done a great job and are still capable of it. And in STVI they're about to retire so I got no problems there.

I haven't even got any problems with the TNG movies especially since they were moving on in NEM and it seemed to me just mucking around in INS in between diplomatic assignments.

If we had seen the guys on the ground like they were in the series then you could see they might have needed some younger guys/girls for action adventure.

The only place I recalled where the regular crew might have been better off with someone younger might have been in STV but I don't think it helps analysing that movie too closely.

 

[C.E. Evans]

It seemed as if the Enterprise-A was a special case and that it was more of an issue of keeping "Kirk's gang" together, maybe even as a PR thing in the aftermath of the Whalesong Incident.

Which also capably explains why, with the exception of Sulu, who has his own command, exactly that same group is still together in TUC. Bringing/keeping them all together for "events" like escorting the Klingon Ambassador to Earth would be just up their alley.

That works as a rationalization, but it's still unfortunate from an action-adventure standpoint. I mean, the captain of a big ship is supposed to be "the old man," so Kirk and Spock are fine.

But the Enterprise wasn't conceived as a parade float for aging veterans.

Says who, really? Given all the political turmoil in the aftermath of the Genesis fiasco and the alleged reputation of Kirk and his senior staff as interstellar heroes, it's actually very conceivable that the Enterprise-A was indeed paraded out for special missions that were tailored made for Kirk and his staff.

Retaining so much legacy cast (to say nothing of rusty actors who felt they had to puff up their chests and knock every line of dialog out of the park just to get noticed) really hurt the Classic Cast movies. TNG faired a little better on the histrionics but still suffered from title/rank inflation among supporting roles.

I have to disagree with that. It didn't hurt the TOS movies at all to keep Kirk's gang together nor did it hurt the TNG movies to keep Picard's crew together. If anything, the TNG movies were "hurt" by ditching the ensemble formula from the TV series and focusing primarily on Picard and Data, but that could be attributed to TNG not transitioning all that well to the big screen, IMO (no movies focusing mainly on characters other than Picard and Data).

 

[Lance]

If it were 1978 and I was in charge, I would seriously consider offering very brief cameo appearances at most to the "legacy" supporting cast. Then I'd give Kirk and Spock new, young subordinates to man the bridge.

That was basically the point of Will Decker, Lt Xon and Lt Ilia. And also Lt Saavik in TWOK. All were conceived as 'the next generation' of crewmembers being trained up to eventually supplant/replace the originals. Somewhere around TSFS the legacy cast (particularly the big three) cemented their places in the movies though, so the idea that anybody could take their place was undermined somewhat...

 

[C.E. Evans]

If it were 1978 and I was in charge, I would seriously consider offering very brief cameo appearances at most to the "legacy" supporting cast. Then I'd give Kirk and Spock new, young subordinates to man the bridge.

That was basically the point of Will Decker, Lt Xon and Lt Ilia. And also Lt Saavik in TWOK. All were conceived as 'the next generation' of crewmembers being trained up to eventually supplant/replace the originals. Somewhere around TSFS the legacy cast (particularly the big three) cemented their places in the movies though, so the idea that anybody could take their place was undermined somewhat...

The idea of a TOS "Big 7" really didn't come into play until Star Trek IV. Up until then, the main characters were only Kirk, Spock, and McCoy with the rest being minor characters that Trekkies were nevertheless familiar with. After that movie, it was kind of finalized who the regulars were.

 

[Timo]

Agreed strongly that the TOS-movie escalation of main character rank isn't a case of the operating crew of a starship becoming unrealistically top-heavy. It's a case of celebrated senior officers being invited aboard a starship under a series of special circumstances:

1) TMP is just Kirk's dream team put together for a single mission, and quite possibly dispersed immediately thereafter.
2) ST2 is a birthday celebration cruise. ST3 and ST4 represent its aftermath, involving no mission as such.
3) ST5 is a mission of sorts, yes, but in some ways similar to TMP in that Kirk personally is summoned and supposedly has his pick of a crew (but not a ship, it seems). It's the weakest of the lot in this respect, admittedly.
4) ST6 is pure public relations, and at least Kirk and Spock are aboard as "passengers" of political importance.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RoJoHen]

It's not really that these characters were stuck in the same positions. There were circumstances that brought them all together.

In TMP, Bones was already retired.

In TWOK, the Enterprise was being used as a training vessel, and the main cast was basically running that show.

In TSFS, they chose to work together to go get Spock. It's not like they were assigned to certain stations; they all banded together and stole the Enterprise.

TVH is a continuation of that, only this time with a Bird of Prey.

TFF is where is gets a little iffy, but after saving the world, Starfleet probably realized that this team worked extremely well together and didn't want to split them up.

By the time TUC rolls around, the characters had all pretty much moved on again. Scotty bought a boat. Uhura was supposed to be lecturing at the Academy. Sulu has his own ship. But once again, Starfleet probably decided that given the importance of the Gorkon mission, they wanted their best team at the helm. It also isn't a coincidence that Spock was pretty much in charge; "You...personally...vouched?" No doubt Spock is the reason that particular group of officers was assigned to that mission.

 

[Timo]

The interesting question then becomes, what was the "real" crew of the Enterprise like during these movies, when the main heroes weren't hogging the screen time?

Spock was the skipper during the training ship years, and Scotty apparently the engineer. But which other officers would have been involved, outside Kirk's birthday? Sulu and Chekov clearly were not, but Uhura and McCoy are unknown quantities.

In TMP, Decker was to be the skipper, but that's pretty much all we know. Scotty was managing the refit - but would he have been aboard the ship beyond the first test flights? Were Sulu, Uhura and Chekov summoned aboard to help rush the launch preparations, and then told they are really there as part of Kirk's dream team, or were they already involved in the refitting in a more integral way? And would even this have meant their involvement in the actual missions of the ship?

If Spock specifically invited Kirk to command the escort mission in ST6, who was the skipper of the ship before/outside that mission? Spock, despite being diplomatically engaged? Chekov? Harriman? Heck, was Kirk the captain of the ship during the mission, or was Spock?

That's three sets of unknowns, arguables and maybes already.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Agreed strongly that the TOS-movie escalation of main character rank isn't a case of the operating crew of a starship becoming unrealistically top-heavy. It's a case of celebrated senior officers being invited aboard a starship under a series of special circumstances:

1) TMP is just Kirk's dream team put together for a single mission, and quite possibly dispersed immediately thereafter.
2) ST2 is a birthday celebration cruise. ST3 and ST4 represent its aftermath, involving no mission as such.
3) ST5 is a mission of sorts, yes, but in some ways similar to TMP in that Kirk personally is summoned and supposedly has his pick of a crew (but not a ship, it seems). It's the weakest of the lot in this respect, admittedly.
4) ST6 is pure public relations, and at least Kirk and Spock are aboard as "passengers" of political importance.

Timo Saloniemi

It's not really that these characters were stuck in the same positions. There were circumstances that brought them all together.

In TMP, Bones was already retired.

In TWOK, the Enterprise was being used as a training vessel, and the main cast was basically running that show.

In TSFS, they chose to work together to go get Spock. It's not like they were assigned to certain stations; they all banded together and stole the Enterprise.

TVH is a continuation of that, only this time with a Bird of Prey.

TFF is where is gets a little iffy, but after saving the world, Starfleet probably realized that this team worked extremely well together and didn't want to split them up.

By the time TUC rolls around, the characters had all pretty much moved on again. Scotty bought a boat. Uhura was supposed to be lecturing at the Academy. Sulu has his own ship. But once again, Starfleet probably decided that given the importance of the Gorkon mission, they wanted their best team at the helm. It also isn't a coincidence that Spock was pretty much in charge; "You...personally...vouched?" No doubt Spock is the reason that particular group of officers was assigned to that mission.

All true. I'm just saying that none of these story-bending, premise-distorting convolutions would be necessary if TMP had not brought back the supporting actors in the first place. The ST movies didn't have to be about a bunch of old folks.

When Scotty romanced Uhura in ST V, didn't we all die a little, inside? Of embarrassment? The Enterprise not working properly in TMP, ST III, and ST V was like a metaphor for the handicap of catering to the rusty legacy cast. Between the cast and the ship, it often seemed like these movies had two speeds: slow and stop.

The ST movie premise could have been Kirk and Spock plus a bunch of fit young officers going on adventures directly, instead of searching for excuses to reunite an old gang for yet another ceremonial showboat mission.

 

[drt]

All true. I'm just saying that none of these story-bending, premise-distorting convolutions would be necessary if TMP had not brought back the supporting actors in the first place. The ST movies didn't have to be about a bunch of old folks.

* snip *

The ST movie premise could have been Kirk and Spock plus a bunch of fit young officers going on adventures directly, instead of searching for excuses to reunite an old gang for yet another ceremonial showboat mission.

It's not so much that TMP brought them all together, it's that they're still together for 2-6 which cover a period of something like 5-20 years post-TMP. If ST2 was part of a "second five-year mission" taking place after TMP, it maybe would have made more sense for them to be together (although, I think advancing the time period of ST2 to more closely match the actual passage of time works to explain the appearance of the actors, who seemed to age a lot after 1978).

 

[RoJoHen]

All true. I'm just saying that none of these story-bending, premise-distorting convolutions would be necessary if TMP had not brought back the supporting actors in the first place. The ST movies didn't have to be about a bunch of old folks.

When Scotty romanced Uhura in ST V, didn't we all die a little, inside? Of embarrassment? The Enterprise not working properly in TMP, ST III, and ST V was like a metaphor for the handicap of catering to the rusty legacy cast. Between the cast and the ship, it often seemed like these movies had two speeds: slow and stop.

The ST movie premise could have been Kirk and Spock plus a bunch of fit young officers going on adventures directly, instead of searching for excuses to reunite an old gang for yet another ceremonial showboat mission.

Growing old was a recurring theme in several of the Trek movies as early as TWOK. I rather enjoyed that it was acknowledged. It's one of the reasons I appreciate those movies so much.

Spock in TUC: "Is it possible that we two, you and I, have grown so old that we have outlived our usefulness?"

 

[Lance]

It's like I said before, theoretically these issues were implicitly addressed in the 'Phase II' bible, and by extension TMP and TWOK followed with that thinking.

Of course, there's no saying that 'Phase II' wouldn't have become the Captain Kirk show again, just like TOS. Again, in theory the bible is written from the perspective of giving the wider cast more of a stake in events. But once Shatner (and his agent) got their oars in, there's no saying it would've stayed that way.

Certainly the reason why the movies kind of dropped the 'new generation' idea was because Paramount doesn't pay the big bucks to Shatner, Nimoy and co simply to have them sitting there feeding lines to Kirstie Alley.

 

[Kirby]

For TMP it made sense for them all to be there: Chekov was just a Lt, Scotty was in charge of the refit, Sulu was most likely the 2nd officer, and that leaves Uhura as the only question mark.

TWOK - Sulu was supposed to be leaving to Captain the Excelsior taking one last joy ride, but that got scrapped, so his appearance made less sense. Uhura and Scotty don't make a lot of sense here, and none of the senior officer's appearance in the simulator makes any sense. Chekov was XO of the Reliant, so that made sense.

TSFS and TVH - As others have said, not a Starfleet mission, they all chose to go.

TFF - There is absolutely no reason for this crew to be together except for Starfleet ordering them together at the end of TVH, but yeah, they were way too top heavy in the command structure.

TUC - Sulu was off with the Excelsior, and the rest seemed to come together from elsewhere to help out. I got the feeling that Spock was the official Captain of the Enterprise, and maybe Chekov was the XO, and they deferred to the Kirk/Spock command whenever Kirk was on board.