TNG Rewatch: 5x01: "Redempton Part 2"

[velour]

I guess this wouldn't have been a memorable episode had Picard not delivered another one of his sanctimonious lectures.

The scene occurred in Picard's ready room. There Data was standing in front of Picard, submitting himself for disciplinary action because he didn't follow Picard's orders. Data admitted that, although his actions proved right, the ends cannot justify the means.

Picard proceeded to excuse Data's actions by essentially saying that the ends did justify the means. Not only did Picard excuse Data's actions, Picard praised them.

So what was the lesson Data was suppose to take from this experience? Does the ends justify the means, or not? Are orders only recommendations to be followed or not? I thought Picard should have given a more nuanced explanation.

I can understand Picard's point, but he didn't go about it appropriately.

But that was only part of Picard's lecture. Picard went on to say that the claim, "I was only following orders", had been used to justify too many tragedies in the past. It seemed obvious to me that Picard mentioned this to further excuse Data's actions.

But it hardly seemed like an apt analogy to me.

Data didn't disobey orders to commit war crimes, crimes against humanity or genocide. The order that Data was given was merely about battlefield tactics. It was an apples and oranges comparison.

I don't know how much discretion and leeway field commanders have as to whether orders from superiors must be followed to a T.

I thought that Picard's lecture to Data wasn't well thought out. By cavalierly dismissing the need to follow orders as Picard did, I thought Picard opened the door to potential chaos up and down the ranks.

Picard (the writers) should have picked a different situation (one that would have been appropriate) to make the point about "I was only following orders".

 

[Mojochi]

The "I was only following orders" line was indeed a very misplaced analogy. It was a really heavy handed attempt to through around some general morality, to tie everything off. However, I do think some leeway should have been afforded to Data in his minor transgression. "The ends justify the means" cliche may also be a misplaced analogy. The real spirit behind why you let Data off is more like the line "Let cooler heads prevail"

From a command standpoint, here's what you do in this case. Data did not follow the laid out orders per say. Yet his actions yielded a success that would otherwise not have happened. So you take the whole of it into account. Data's ingenuity stopped a war. Frankly, that's commendation worthy. However, he disregarded orders to achieve it. So the punishment is.... No commendation. That's how you can put it on record and save face on the chain of command if you really must

Then you pull him aside and say "Thinking outside the box just cost you a medal, and simultaneously saved everyone's ass. You decide which means more"

 

[Ghrakh]

Data's true "humanism" is clearly conveyed in "In Theory". Whatever emotional attachment fans think he has is being projected onto him. And he can just switch algorithms and "yes sir" with the best of them, like he did in "Chain Of Command".

 

[Mojochi]

Whatever emotional attachment fans think he has is being projected onto him.

I totally disagree, & I just illustrated why in the love life thread. Data has the same components as Lore, & Lore is shown to be able to feel everything similarly to a Human. This means Data is capable of the same level of "Humanity" but has had it diminished, suppressed or otherwise removed to some degree. To what degree we don't know, but the evidence in the show supports that there's something there. Soong has never suggested that Data is programmed without emotions or bereft of them in the absolute

 

[RAMA]

When I originally watched these two episodes I liked them but judged them as inferior to BoBW and therefore a disappoinment. Kind of harsh I think. Looking back on it they were excellent episodes with a bit too much of Sela in them. Absolutely loved Data's arc as the captain of the Sutherland. I've watched the remastered bluray of this episode 3 times, the most of any episode from STNG-R.

RAMA

 

[velour]

I suppose the Redemption episodes were meant to be about Worf finding redemption. However, Worf showed himself to be anything but a sympathetic hero.

Worf, as a character, didn't redeem himself in Redemption. Rather, I thought Worf disgraced himself instead.

Worf was presented as some sort of big shot at the beginning. He was the son of Mogh. And he rubbed that in everyone's face. Yet, at the end of Redemption, Worf had his tail between his legs. He had to run back to his daddy, Picard, begging for permission to return to his comfortable life in Starfleet.

For someone who had abandoned the Klingon Empire for life and service with the Feds, Worf had the audacity to butt in to Klingon internal affairs. I didn't know why Gowran and Duras didn't just tell Worf to get lost.

Worf was full of himself, full of his own belief in his Klingon-ness, and full of his inflated sense in his own importance. However, when Worf was serving in the Empire, he showed that he couldn't handle the rough and tumble lifestyle and politics of the Empire. He was an imposter imo. Worf seemed more like a Klingon in biology only, wanting too badly to play the role of a warrior.

I thought Worf made a fool of himself. Then again, the Klingons were foolish enough to bring Worf into the fold.

Also, I found Worf's constant switching of allegiance between the Feds and the Klingon Empire to be contemptible. Worf's flip flopping should make one wonder about his loyalty, reliability, and integrity.

I didn't think that the Redemption eps put the Worf character in a good light.

 

[Louigi Verona]

Right. But I think that part of the charm of Worf's character is exactly that he is not someone you would sympathize with necessarily, but you are interested in them anyway. Worf is an interesting deep character, but not a character to be liked.