TNG, DS9 & VOY era Military Powers
- Thread starter EmoBorg
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Well in an alternative timeline the UFP was losing a war against the Klingons in the mid 24th Century, the CU certainly seemed to be the weakest of them but they fought a war which lasted several years with the Federation in the late ~2347 to early 2350's so they weren't exactly a push over but we don't know how many resources each side put in to it. The UFP certainly seemed to be in a better place from ~2370 when the new ships/weapons designed to fight the Borg started to come online.
In The Wounded we see a Nebula class ship can tear ass through Cardassian space virtually unchallenged. Granted, most of the targets were unarmed or lightly armed freighters and cargo ships, but we know of at least one combat cruiser which the Phoenix fought with that didn't really put up much of a fight. Earlier in the same episode, the Enterprise fight with a Galor class ship which doesn't really seem very favourable for the Galor. So, yeah, pre-Dominion War anyway, the Cardassians were probably the weakest of the Alpha Quadrant's major powers.
And post Dominion war they seem to be in an even worse state than prior to the war.
Well, that definitely goes without saying.
It seems that the Federation has the most territory to guard, it's starships probably pack as much power as the Klingons but on a ship per ship basis a Romulan Warbird would have more teeth.
How the Cardassians square up with the Feds seems to oscillate quite quickly. During the Cardassian Wars in which O'Brien and Maxwell fought there seems to be a general equivalency, during The Wounded episode however Cardassian tech lags behind the Galaxy and Nebula class ships only to somewhat catch up a few short years later.
It seems that most of the Federation's rivals are relatively small militarised empires with large fleets. Whereas the Federation's vulnerability isn't their ships per say but the huge territory that has to be guarded leading to overstretch.
That's my sense of it anyway without digging too deeply into the nitty gritty of things.
How the Cardassians square up with the Feds seems to oscillate quite quickly. During the Cardassian Wars in which O'Brien and Maxwell fought there seems to be a general equivalency, during The Wounded episode however Cardassian tech lags behind the Galaxy and Nebula class ships only to somewhat catch up a few short years later.
It seems that most of the Federation's rivals are relatively small militarised empires with large fleets. Whereas the Federation's vulnerability isn't their ships per say but the huge territory that has to be guarded leading to overstretch.
That's my sense of it anyway without digging too deeply into the nitty gritty of things.
I get the impression the Cardassian border wars were more political wars similar to Vietnam in the 20th century. In a straight up battle a US tank or aircraft or solder was better equipped and could tear through it's Viet Cong opponent. However, due to the political nature of that war, the conflict raged 15 years resulting in US pull out and failing the objective of halting communist aggression in Vietnam.
I see the Cardassian border wars as the same. Head to head, Starfleet ships look superior, but politics dictated that the Federation was not going to simply steamroll Cardassian territory over a border skirmish. It appears during that conflict Starfleet used older ships in that area and did not commit more forces to the conflict than was necessary in order to maintain the status quo along the border.
Of course, Galaxy Class ships were deployed after that conflict ended. It might also be that the Nebula Class were also launched after the conflict ended. It could also be likely that, as stated above, Starfleet and Cardassian ships were more evenly matched during the border wars.
I see the Cardassian border wars as the same. Head to head, Starfleet ships look superior, but politics dictated that the Federation was not going to simply steamroll Cardassian territory over a border skirmish. It appears during that conflict Starfleet used older ships in that area and did not commit more forces to the conflict than was necessary in order to maintain the status quo along the border.
Of course, Galaxy Class ships were deployed after that conflict ended. It might also be that the Nebula Class were also launched after the conflict ended. It could also be likely that, as stated above, Starfleet and Cardassian ships were more evenly matched during the border wars.
I have always had the feeling, at least by the 24th century the UFP was the most powerful but also the most hindered by its own principles. The Dominion was most worried about the UFP, and the Borg zero'd on them as well, even the Sphere Builders did their best to prevent the UFP from happening.
That being said they tried to take the Romulan's and Cardassian's out first with their intelligence agencies ill faded attack on the founder's world. However later they would sign non-aggression treaties with other non-aligned races perhaps in attempt to isolate the UFP. But that might not have been a bad strategy in the long term get the other races on your side so when you decide to impose "order" on the galaxy your biggest possible threat can't forge those alliances.
I wonder, I've thought for years that alternate Picard might have been lying to Captain Garrett about losing to the Klingons, in order to get her to agree to take her ship back in time to certain dead, an action she initially refused to do.
The Klingons and the Federation would seem to be evenly matched, the Klingon being distracted from war with the Federation by being internally focused.
The Romulans have a fraction of the Federation's military abilities, but could cause damage to the Federation in the area of the Federation ajacent to their mutual border.
The Cardassians slightly less of a power than the Romulans, but are expansionistic like the Federation itself, bringing the two in conflict where their two territories are begining to run into each other.
The Sphere Builders? I think I'm lost on that one...
JB
JB
Enterprise season 3. They were the bald witches using the Xindi against Earth to try and alter the outcome of a battle 600 years in the future.The Sphere Builders? I think I'm lost on that one...
JB
Or something.
There was a tactical map in some scenes that showed a lot more Klingon symbols then Federation.
The Sphere Builders? I think I'm lost on that one...
JB
Thanks, King Daniel! I think I do remember them somehow! didn't they have trouble talking with being out of sync or something?
JB
Honestly, I don't think the Federation really put much effort into the Cardassian War. I doubt they sent their new toys to play in that sandbox, there was probably mostly Excelsiors or Mirandas with some Constellations and maybe an Ambassador class or two. In other words, ships that might not intimidate a Galor class. I doubt a Galaxy or Nebula class got involved in the conflict. Indeed, that could be why Gul Macet took a shoot first approach to the Enterprise in The Wounded, he was expecting a far less impressive ship since that's all he'd encountered from Starfleet up to that point.
There are really two separate questions here that are tied together: who has the best ships and who has the most ships.
Remembering that everything I am about to say is basically guesses and opinion:
The Romulans have the best ships. Not ony are their big ones bigger, their tech is ever-so-slightly better. But they are hampered by their territory being small, thus their number of ships is also small. They just don't have the resources to build a massive fleet. The Warbirds we saw in fleet battles on DS9 might have been all the Warbirds they have.
Of course, their first line of defense is secrecy: they will never let anyone know just how many ships they have so you can't be certain their borders aren't defended by more Warbirds than they seem likely to have.
The Federation is second-best in tech, but its territory is big. On the one hand, this means lots of resources, which means they can build a lot of new ships quickly, but it also means they need a lot of ships. They have a lot of hostile neighbors who need to stay convinced that invading the Federation is a bad idea, and a lot of shipping lanes that need search-and-rescue service.
Also, the Federation doesn't really believe in building dedicated military vessels, so their punch-per-ship may be comparatively low.
The Klingons are just slightly behind the Federation in tech, and a bit more behind the Federation in size, but more than make up for that by having a huge percentage of their population and economy devoted to warfare. The Klingons can probably send a force against the Federation that is larger than what the Federation can send to resist that without leaving itself open to the Romulans or the Gorn. At least in the short-term.
The Cardassians have three problems: their tech isn't as good, their empire is small, and the worlds the do control are low in useful resources.
Like the Klingons, they devote a large share of what they do have to the military. Their ships are strong and they have far more of them than you would suspect from their population or number of worlds.
When they were at war with the Federation, the Federation wasn't trying to destroy them but rather to defend itself. As we've seen, when the Klingons decided to conquer Cardassia the outcome was never really in question, only how long it would take.
There are plenty of powers smaller than the Cardassian Union, but I would agree they are the smallest of the major powers.
The Ferengi are a wild-card: their ships are formidable and they have decent numbers of them, but they aren't territorial in quite the same way as other powers, nor are they interested in large-scale military action.
Could the Ferengi assemble a force large enough to conquer the Cardassian Union? Probably, if they were convinced there was profit in that.
The Klingon Empire? Probably not.
But convincing more than three Ferengi captains that they can get more profit by working together against a larger target than working separately against smaller targets is a monumental task.
Remembering that everything I am about to say is basically guesses and opinion:
The Romulans have the best ships. Not ony are their big ones bigger, their tech is ever-so-slightly better. But they are hampered by their territory being small, thus their number of ships is also small. They just don't have the resources to build a massive fleet. The Warbirds we saw in fleet battles on DS9 might have been all the Warbirds they have.
Of course, their first line of defense is secrecy: they will never let anyone know just how many ships they have so you can't be certain their borders aren't defended by more Warbirds than they seem likely to have.
The Federation is second-best in tech, but its territory is big. On the one hand, this means lots of resources, which means they can build a lot of new ships quickly, but it also means they need a lot of ships. They have a lot of hostile neighbors who need to stay convinced that invading the Federation is a bad idea, and a lot of shipping lanes that need search-and-rescue service.
Also, the Federation doesn't really believe in building dedicated military vessels, so their punch-per-ship may be comparatively low.
The Klingons are just slightly behind the Federation in tech, and a bit more behind the Federation in size, but more than make up for that by having a huge percentage of their population and economy devoted to warfare. The Klingons can probably send a force against the Federation that is larger than what the Federation can send to resist that without leaving itself open to the Romulans or the Gorn. At least in the short-term.
The Cardassians have three problems: their tech isn't as good, their empire is small, and the worlds the do control are low in useful resources.
Like the Klingons, they devote a large share of what they do have to the military. Their ships are strong and they have far more of them than you would suspect from their population or number of worlds.
When they were at war with the Federation, the Federation wasn't trying to destroy them but rather to defend itself. As we've seen, when the Klingons decided to conquer Cardassia the outcome was never really in question, only how long it would take.
There are plenty of powers smaller than the Cardassian Union, but I would agree they are the smallest of the major powers.
The Ferengi are a wild-card: their ships are formidable and they have decent numbers of them, but they aren't territorial in quite the same way as other powers, nor are they interested in large-scale military action.
Could the Ferengi assemble a force large enough to conquer the Cardassian Union? Probably, if they were convinced there was profit in that.
The Klingon Empire? Probably not.
But convincing more than three Ferengi captains that they can get more profit by working together against a larger target than working separately against smaller targets is a monumental task.
I think Romulans, Klingons and UFP had roughly equal military power, but KE&RSE only managed this by pouring a huge part of their economy into the military. The UFP had by far the bigger potential though.
The final discussion between Odo and the Female Changeling at the end of the Dominion War is quite enlightening I think. Odo assures her that Klingons and Romulans are in no shape to invade the Gamma Quadrant AND the Federation wouldn't let them anyway. I always took this that the Federation was at this point like the USA in mid-1945. Having suffered huge losses yes, but after several years of war economy they now have an incredible production potential, so overwhelming that they are clearly calling the shots for now.
The Cardassians always seemed to be a second tier power compared to the big three. I mean, without Starfleet's intervention, a THIRD of the Klingon military would have reached Cardassia within what, a week?
The final discussion between Odo and the Female Changeling at the end of the Dominion War is quite enlightening I think. Odo assures her that Klingons and Romulans are in no shape to invade the Gamma Quadrant AND the Federation wouldn't let them anyway. I always took this that the Federation was at this point like the USA in mid-1945. Having suffered huge losses yes, but after several years of war economy they now have an incredible production potential, so overwhelming that they are clearly calling the shots for now.
The Cardassians always seemed to be a second tier power compared to the big three. I mean, without Starfleet's intervention, a THIRD of the Klingon military would have reached Cardassia within what, a week?
Whether on purpose or not the Cardassians were always written as the runner-up in everything.
Not as powerful as anyone
Not as sneaky as the Romulans (or, honestly, the Federation)
Not QUITE as devoted to the state as the Romulans
Not as warlike as the Klingons
Not as advanced as the Federation
Not as good at trading as the Ferengi (seriously.. who would buy anything from the spoonheads?)
Not as scary as the Breen.
They're just sort of .. there. The sick old man of the Alpha quadrant waiting to collapse and start an intergalactic war.
Yes.
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