TMP's V'Ger & TVH's whale probe: villains or not?

[Tallguy]

The fact it's been travelling so long, that's warp field has collected a layer of material so emmense like a dust cloud building over it, would take many many years of constant warp travel through interstellar mediums to gather it all.

The cloud wasn't dust. It was Vejur's power field reacting with interstellar matter at high warp. When Vejur slows down the cloud goes away. "Luminescent power field" is how the Epsilon 9 station describes it. Roddenberry goes into greater detail in the novel.

Oh, and to answer the thread: Hell yes. Both of them are at best accidentally genocidal. Neither stops because they are convinced of the worth of the lives they are threatening (unlike One of Our Planets is Missing). Both stop because they get what they want, damn the consequences.

Vejur knows only that it needs. So did Soran. So did Apollo.

"Only human arrogance would assume the message must be meant for man." And only Whale Probe arrogance would assume the message is worth wiping out most of the surface dwelling life on the planet (at least)!

 

[Galileo7]

How are TMP and TVH about "exploration"? They're both about emergency missions to save Earth from imminent destruction, not exploration for exploration's sake.

Just because a TREK movie doesn't have an overt bad guy, doesn't mean they're about exploration. And in the case of those particular movies, they're very much about stopping a threat, not seeking out new life and civilizations.

Which is not unlike the TV series, which often involved rescue missions, diplomatic missions, medical emergencies, spy missions, courier missions, etc. As opposed to episodes where they're just checking out some new planet or phenomenon purely for exploratory reasons.

Based on that I would say of the thirteen Star Trek films, only TMP is about exploration of the V'Ger ship and a new "lifeform" V'Ger to save Earth. Still, it is about exploration of V'Ger not just the Enterprise shooting at it from a safe distance from the outside of the V'Ger ship.

 

[TheSubCommander]

Humans were the villains of TVH, for having killed off the humpback whales.

 

[Tallguy]

Humans were the villains of TVH, for having killed off the humpback whales.

So... The 23rd century people had it coming to them? I want to see the episode where Picard & Co. sterilize a world because of what they're ancestors did. And then say "Hey. WE'RE not the bad guys. THEY are."

 

[Greg Cox]

Based on that I would say of the thirteen Star Trek films, only TMP is about exploration of the V'Ger ship and a new "lifeform" V'Ger to save Earth. Still, it is about exploration of V'Ger not just the Enterprise shooting at it from a safe distance from the outside of the V'Ger ship.

To my mind, TMP's not remotely about "exploration." It's about trying to stop the destruction of the Earth by making contact with the giant alien threat heading straight for the planet. Calling that an "exploratory" mission is like describing a desperate attempt to disarm a ticking nuclear bomb "a science project."

It's to Starfleet's credit that they didn't immediately go in with guns blazing, but "exploration" was by means the purpose of that mission. Reconnaissance is not the same thing as exploration.

Exploration is about discovering what's beyond the next star, or beaming down to a previously uncharted Class-M planet just to find out what's there. It's not about mobilizing to stop an imminent threat, with a countdown to doomsday already in progress. "Exploration" in that case is a last-ditch attempt at survival, not a mission of discovery.

 

[Galileo7]

To my mind, TMP's not remotely about "exploration." It's about trying to stop the destruction of the Earth by making contact with the giant alien threat heading straight for the planet. Calling that an "exploratory" mission is like describing a desperate attempt to disarm a ticking nuclear bomb "a science project."

It's to Starfleet's credit that they didn't immediately go in with guns blazing, but "exploration" was by means the purpose of that mission. Reconnaissance is not the same thing as exploration.

Exploration is about discovering what's beyond the next star, or beaming down to a previously uncharted Class-M planet just to find out what's there. It's not about mobilizing to stop an imminent threat, with a countdown to doomsday already in progress. "Exploration" in that case is a last-ditch attempt at survival, not a mission of discovery.

Point taken.
So this thread should have been the fact that of the current thirteen STAR TREK films none have been about exploration.
Although, only two are not about conflict with a hostile villain/antagonist character, i.e., TMP(1979) and TVH(1986). Unless you count '86 earthlings attempting to hamper the retrieval of the whales, then it is just one, TMP.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yep. They mostly oohed and ahhed at the sights. Then got out and walked.

 

[Greg Cox]

Yep. They mostly oohed and ahhed at the sights. Then got out and walked.

Well, Chekov also screamed once . .. .

 

[Tallguy]

It's to Starfleet's credit that they didn't immediately go in with guns blazing, but "exploration" was by means the purpose of that mission. Reconnaissance is not the same thing as exploration.

Starfleet does not go in guns blazing because it is hilariously outgunned. If there was a defensive solution with two days before the Earth is destroyed then Kirk, the Enterprise, and Starfleet would have taken it. And at the end of TMP Kirk is going to take the only combative action he can, the destruction of the Enterprise and (hopefully) Vejur.

Although, only two are not about conflict with a hostile villain/antagonist character, i.e., TMP(1979) and TVH(1986). Unless you count '86 earthlings attempting to hamper the retrieval of the whales, then it is just one, TMP.

I think an intelligent being (Vejur and the Whale Probe) set to destroy an entire planet's ecosystem is pretty antagonistic. Although Vejur is a character and the WP is a McGuffin.

In both films if our Heroes do not Act then billions die.

 

[Galileo7]

...
I think an intelligent being (Vejur and the Whale Probe) set to destroy an entire planet's ecosystem is pretty antagonistic. Although Vejur is a character and the WP is a McGuffin.

In both films if our Heroes do not Act then billions die.

Point taken.
So this thread should have been the fact that of the current thirteen STAR TREK films all are about conflict with a hostile villain/antagonist character and none have been about exploration.

 

[Greg Cox]

Which is pretty close to the way TOS usually handled it. I haven't counted, but there probably not all that many TOS episodes that are about exploration, pure and simple. Usually, they're trying to avert a war, or get a treaty signed, or deliver vital medical supplies to some imperiled planet, or respond to a distress signal, or whatever.

Just off the top of my head, I guess that "Where No Man Goes Before" counts, since they're trying to cross the galactic barrier in the spirit of pure explorations. And perhaps "The Corbomite Maneuver" since Kirk is determined to make first contact with the aliens and learn more about them despite all the warning buoys and such.

 

[Galileo7]

Which is pretty close to the way TOS usually handled it. I haven't counted, but there probably not all that many TOS episodes that are about exploration, pure and simple. Usually, they're trying to avert a war, or get a treaty signed, or deliver vital medical supplies to some imperiled planet, or respond to a distress signal, or whatever.

Just off the top of my head, I guess that "Where No Man Goes Before" counts, since they're trying to cross the galactic barrier in the spirit of pure explorations. And perhaps "The Corbomite Maneuver" since Kirk is determined to make first contact with the aliens and learn more about them despite all the warning buoys and such.

Thanks, you answered the question that I was going to post regarding which episodes would be defined as exploration. TOS exploration episodes comes down to those two.

 

[Kor]

Yes, V'Ger and the whale probe were maniacal, mustache-twirling villains that cackled with glee as they attempted to destroy the Earth.

But seriously, I think they could be considered antagonists, as stated somewhere upthread. But not villains.

Kor

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yes, V'Ger and the whale probe were maniacal, mustache-twirling villains that cackled with glee as they attempted to destroy the Earth.

But seriously, I think they could be considered antagonists, as stated somewhere upthread. But not villains.

Kor

SqueeeeeeeeeeeeeeSkwaaaaaaaaEeeeeeeeeeeeee does translate into "Bwahahahahahah! Die land crawling scum!" in English.

 

[Greg Cox]

Thanks, you answered the question that I was going to post regarding which episodes would be defined as exploration. TOS exploration episodes comes down to those two.

Well, there could be more. Those were just the first two to come to mind. I didn't make an exhaustive search of all 79 episodes.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well, there could be more. Those were just the first two to come to mind. I didn't make an exhaustive search of all 79 episodes.

I made a list once outlining the mission type of each episode. Wish I could find it.

 

[Greg Cox]

Okay, my definition of an exploratory mission is that basically the Enterprise is simply checking out a previously unexplored planet or system when things go south, as opposed to those episodes where they're competing with the Klingons for mineral rights or on a peacekeeping mission or answering a a distress call or whatever.

By that definition, we can probably add "The Enemy Within," "Shore Leave," "That Which Survives," "Who Mourns for Adonais?", "The Apple," "Catspaw," "Assignment: Earth" (if we count exploring history), and, arguably, "Space Seed." (I think investigating a derelict ship that you find floating out in the middle of nowhere counts as exploration.)

Granted, these routine survey missions and exploratory landing parties often lead to matters more serious than just taking soil samples, but they all start out as exploratory missions before the redshirts start dying and everything goes to hell.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Granted, these routine survey missions and exploratory landing parties often lead to matters more serious than just taking soil samples, but they all start out as exploratory missions before the redshirts start dying and everything goes to hell.

They often go in with one type of mission in mind, but wind up doing a different type of mission.

 

[Greg Cox]

They often go in with one type of mission in mind, but wind up doing a different type of mission.

True. And, oddly, those routine survey missions always turn out to be less than routine.

But, seriously, "The Galileo Seven" is a good example. They start out returning from a mission of mercy, delivering medical supplies to some poor planet, only to end up fighting giant troglydytes--which was not part of the mission briefing, damn it!