TMP Question

[Bread]

Was it essential to the outcome of the V'Ger confrontation that Kirk took command of the Enterprise from Decker?

Would Spock have joined the crew anyway? I think he would as it was V'Ger that was his motivation.

Looking at the film, is there anything Decker wouldn't have done that Kirk went on to do? I suspect not.

Kirk wasn't necessary, was he?

 

[sonak]

Was it essential to the outcome of the V'Ger confrontation that Kirk took command of the Enterprise from Decker?

Would Spock have joined the crew anyway? I think he would as it was V'Ger that was his motivation.

Looking at the film, is there anything Decker wouldn't have done that Kirk went on to do? I suspect not.

Kirk wasn't necessary, was he?

um, yes. It's his bluff which got them to the center of V'Ger and led to the discovery of the resolution.

Decker was the play it safe guy, I can't see him gambling like that.

 

[RyanKCR]

Decker also would have done many of the normal things that you do (screens, sheilds, scans) and that would have prompted an attack like Epsilon 9 did.

 

[MasuPu'a]

Kirk wasn't necessary, but I think that was the point the movie was trying to make. That he was so desperate to get back into the captain's chair, back to commanding the Enterprise no less, that he was willing to use any sort of flimsy excuse. I consider TMP to be one of the average Trek films, not great, but not horrible. Still, I think it did this particular plot point well. You can even see how Kirk realizes that he's grasping at straws here, he doesn't know the new Enterprise and makes some mistakes in that area, still he wants to command her again. Even Decker and McCoy point this out.

Then in the end Decker saves the day and tells Kirk that this is his moment, not Kirk's. Even though Kirk took the Enterprise from him, he couldn't take this opportunity with V'Ger away.

 

[Bread]

Kirk wasn't necessary, but I think that was the point the movie was trying to make. That he was so desperate to get back into the captain's chair, back to commanding the Enterprise no less, that he was willing to use any sort of flimsy excuse. I consider TMP to be one of the average Trek films, not great, but not horrible. Still, I think it did this particular plot point well. You can even see how Kirk realizes that he's grasping at straws here, he doesn't know the new Enterprise and makes some mistakes in that area, still he wants to command her again. Even Decker and McCoy point this out.

Then in the end Decker saves the day and tells Kirk that this is his moment, not Kirk's. Even though Kirk took the Enterprise from him, he couldn't take this opportunity with V'Ger away.

I agree, I've revisited the book recently and it puts some meat on the bones of Kirk's desperation to get the ship back.

I'm not entirely sure that Decker would make the mistakes that the Epsilon commander made either, why would he given he saw what happened to the station?

Did Kirk make a difference?

I'm not sure he did.

Spock's return seems to be the pivitol moment and as I've already said, he came for V'Ger and not for Kirk.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Looking at the film, is there anything Decker wouldn't have done that Kirk went on to do? I suspect not.
Kirk wasn't necessary, was he?

They went to lengths to show both Kirk and Decker having a few wins each, thus their styles began to complement each other. Just as Kirk's and Spock's did in TOS. And Kirk's and McCoy's. And Spock's and McCoy's. "Phase II" was intended to show the gradual evolution of a successful command partnership between Kirk and Decker.

At the end of the original "In Thy Image" script, Ilia was abruptly returned alive by V'ger/N'sa, and the remnants of the Probe version was reduced to a burnt-out, inert, metallic core. There was an intention to return Decker whole, too - by an as yet unexplained solution - at the beginning of whichever script was chosen to be episode #2 of "Phase II". And, had Shatner's movie career taken off by Episode #13, Admiral-to-be Kirk would have accepted his promotion, leaving Decker as captain, and the Admiral making the occasional "special guest appearance".

 

[Maurice]

^^^I've never seen an "In Thy Image" script that indicated Decker was to merge with V'ger. I think that change happened when the series was canned and it become TMP.

 

[Therin of Andor]

^^^I've never seen an "In Thy Image" script that indicated Decker was to merge with V'ger. I think that change happened when the series was canned and it become TMP.

Mmmm. The script published in the Reeve-Stevens' "Phase II" book has Decker safe on the Enterprise, researching answers for Kirk as Kirk debates with the Ilia/Tasha Probe, but I'm pretty sure the script I have from Lincoln Enterprises has Decker voluntarily departing with V'ger at the end. Not merging, like at the end of TMP. I shall have to locate it.

An Edward Gross book contains this commentary:

"Bob Collins himself adds even more to the imagery. 'We see Decker making his way toward Voyager,' he says, 'but as he does, he is consumed by the energy of Vejur caught in an energy field more powerful than a million volts of electricity, and becomes himself an energy field. He becomes fused to the ship, melted into it. His consciousness, his mind, his memories become part of Vejur. In a pyrotechnic display of light and sound, the history of mankind is propelled, projected, onto the walls of the ship. A whirling cascade of pictures--the pyramids, the Parthenon, the Mona Lisa, Versailles, Jesus, Mohammed, Ghandi, the Grand Canyon, the Alps--the wonders of the Earth bombard the inside of the ship as Jim Kirk beams himself aboard. We see Kirk surrounded by the sights, the visuals whirling around him, over him, into him. The sights, the sounds: Beethoven, Schubert, Bach--the music of the world. The sights of all history--huge, giant events all playing upon Kirk as Vejur assimilates and understands. It has become Decker. Decker has become it, and the neutron bombs [threatening Earth] are withdrawn. Kirk is allowed to return to the Enterprise with Ilia. The ship, and Decker, leave Earth to seek the universe as Decker's voice, a thousand times amplified as part of Vejur, tells Kirk, 'There's beauty here... the universe before us. Eternity.'"

http://www.mania.com/remaking-star-trek-part-10-thy-image_article_18400.html

 

[Procutus]

Looking at the film, is there anything Decker wouldn't have done that Kirk went on to do? I suspect not.
Kirk wasn't necessary, was he?

They went to lengths to show both Kirk and Decker having a few wins each, thus their styles began to complement each other. Just as Kirk's and Spock's did in TOS. And Kirk's and McCoy's. And Spock's and McCoy's. "Phase II" was intended to show the gradual evolution of a successful command partnership between Kirk and Decker.

At the end of the original "In Thy Image" script, Ilia was abruptly returned alive by V'ger/N'sa, and the remnants of the Probe version was reduced to a burnt-out, inert, metallic core. There was an intention to return Decker whole, too - by an as yet unexplained solution - at the beginning of whichever script was chosen to be episode #2 of "Phase II". And, had Shatner's movie career taken off by Episode #13, Admiral-to-be Kirk would have accepted his promotion, leaving Decker as captain, and the Admiral making the occasional "special guest appearance".

In many ways, I would've liked to have seen this happen. I've always wondered how different Trek would be today if they had progressed with 'Phase II', skipping the theatrical altogether and doing in the manner outlined above. Granted, we would've had late 70s television production values, as opposed to what we got ten years later with TNG, but it still would've been interesting to have put the original crew back on TV to continue what had started with TOS.

 

[Maurice]

An Edward Gross book contains this commentary:

"Bob Collins himself adds even more to the imagery...

http://www.mania.com/remaking-star-trek-part-10-thy-image_article_18400.html

Interesting. But let's not forget that Collins was officially the director of the feature until he was informed by his agent that Wise had replaced him, so this might've been an early TMP script rather than a Phase II pilot.

 

[Gotham Central]

Decker also would have done many of the normal things that you do (screens, sheilds, scans) and that would have prompted an attack like Epsilon 9 did.

Except that it turns out that V'ger would have attacked anyway. Kirk makes lots o noise about not provoking an attack by returning scans and raising shields...but V'ger attacks anyway and the Enterprise is forced to raise its shields. So noting provoked V'ger, that's just what it does. If you think about it, from V'ger's perspective its not attacking, just digitizing objects that it finds interesting.

But to the point, Kirk's actions made no difference there. What saved the Enterprise from the same fate as Episilon 9 and the Amar was Spock discovering the message from V'ger and sending the response.

 

[Gotham Central]

Looking at the film, is there anything Decker wouldn't have done that Kirk went on to do? I suspect not.
Kirk wasn't necessary, was he?

They went to lengths to show both Kirk and Decker having a few wins each, thus their styles began to complement each other. Just as Kirk's and Spock's did in TOS. And Kirk's and McCoy's. And Spock's and McCoy's. "Phase II" was intended to show the gradual evolution of a successful command partnership between Kirk and Decker.

At the end of the original "In Thy Image" script, Ilia was abruptly returned alive by V'ger/N'sa, and the remnants of the Probe version was reduced to a burnt-out, inert, metallic core. There was an intention to return Decker whole, too - by an as yet unexplained solution - at the beginning of whichever script was chosen to be episode #2 of "Phase II". And, had Shatner's movie career taken off by Episode #13, Admiral-to-be Kirk would have accepted his promotion, leaving Decker as captain, and the Admiral making the occasional "special guest appearance".

I'm curious...what exactly did Kirk do that was correct? The only thing that Kirk actually did that made any difference at all was his bluff.

 

[Captrek]

Looking at the film, is there anything Decker wouldn't have done that Kirk went on to do? I suspect not.
Kirk wasn't necessary, was he?

They went to lengths to show both Kirk and Decker having a few wins each, thus their styles began to complement each other. Just as Kirk's and Spock's did in TOS. And Kirk's and McCoy's. And Spock's and McCoy's. "Phase II" was intended to show the gradual evolution of a successful command partnership between Kirk and Decker.

At the end of the original "In Thy Image" script, Ilia was abruptly returned alive by V'ger/N'sa, and the remnants of the Probe version was reduced to a burnt-out, inert, metallic core. There was an intention to return Decker whole, too - by an as yet unexplained solution - at the beginning of whichever script was chosen to be episode #2 of "Phase II". And, had Shatner's movie career taken off by Episode #13, Admiral-to-be Kirk would have accepted his promotion, leaving Decker as captain, and the Admiral making the occasional "special guest appearance".

I'm curious...what exactly did Kirk do that was correct? The only thing that Kirk actually did that made any difference at all was his bluff.

He also made the decision to proceed into the cloud and find whatever was in there when Decker was saying it was an "unwarranted risk." If Decker had been in command, he would have played it very differently. I'm not sure what his plan would have been if he thought proceeding into the cloud was an unwarranted risk. Maybe he would have established contact with Vejur and found the Voyager probe before it was too late, but it's certainly no slam dunk.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Interesting. But let's not forget that Collins was officially the director of the feature until he was informed by his agent that Wise had replaced him, so this might've been an early TMP script rather than a Phase II pilot.

I'll let you know when I find mine, but its definitely labelled "In Thy Image", not TMP. And I'm sure Decker is gone by the end.

 

[arch101]

In the end, it WAS Kirk's experience that made the difference after all. As the crew discovered more and more about V'Ger, Kirk was able to improvise based on previous experience with alien machines. I also don't think Spock would have been as forthcoming to Decker about what he was experiencing, and that knowledge was pretty important to devising a strategy. Additionally, the appearance of the Ilia probe would have been a distraction for Decker when he needed to be at his sharpest. (if a Decker-commanded mission had made it that far).

 

[sonak]

In the end, it WAS Kirk's experience that made the difference after all. As the crew discovered more and more about V'Ger, Kirk was able to improvise based on previous experience with alien machines. I also don't think Spock would have been as forthcoming to Decker about what he was experiencing, and that knowledge was pretty important to devising a strategy. Additionally, the appearance of the Ilia probe would have been a distraction for Decker when he needed to be at his sharpest. (if a Decker-commanded mission had made it that far).

those are good points.

 

[plynch]

Kirk's failings and need to be in command of the E are a very nice thing in the film. Who knows if plot Decker might have resolved things differently? Maybe better? The point isn't whether VGer gets foiled (of course it wil), but the character stuff leading to Kirk's resuming his right place, sitting in the center of the circle, being centered again, while forcing Decker to need/want something higher. That's neat stuff going on in what is otherwise a pretty monster movie.

 

[Captrek]

The faith of the crew in their commanding officer is also a significant issue. After receiving the "impossible" order to be ready to launch in 12 hours, they're frantic and appear to believe they can't do it. When Kirk takes command, their attitudes change and they a find a way to get it done. Serving under Kirk gives them the confidence they need to accomplish the impossible. Would they be as effective under Decker, knowing the man in the center seat has never commanded a starship before?

 

[Therin of Andor]

the appearance of the Ilia probe would have been a distraction for Decker when he needed to be at his sharpest.

I love how the nude Ilia Probe turns up in Kirk's quarters' sonic shower in "In Thy Image".

 

[22 Stars]

the appearance of the Ilia probe would have been a distraction for Decker when he needed to be at his sharpest.

I love how the nude Ilia Probe turns up in Kirk's quarters' sonic shower in "In Thy Image".

I'm sure Shatner would have appreciated it as well