Thoughts on STID

[eyeresist]

I rewatched STID over the weekend and jotted down some thoughts as they occurred to me. They might seem obvious, or silly... Whatever, man, that's not my problem!

- The Nibiru aliens resemble the new aliens in STB - white face with thin black line markings. But the STID aliens had rather lumpy faces, suggesting they might be covered with mud or clay in tribal markings, rather than it being a physiological feature. (Did you know "Nibiru" supposedly comes from Babylonian astronomy? It is also a name given to a hypothetical planet in far Sol orbit.)

- The dominant colour in NuTrek? White. A gleaming white seems to be at the base of most of the visuals, this unique look presumably obtained via digital grading.

- Kirk is a punk from the beginning of the story: this is the story of his "seasoning". Sadly there wasn't an overt "I have learned something" speech at the end to make his growth clear.

- The cure Khan offers to save the little girl is his blood! The deus ex machina was there all along.

- Those curious military-style caps people are wearing around Starfleet headquarters. A slightly odd choice; don't know if they'll stick with that in later films.

- Why does Spock mind-meld with dying Pike? Is he absorbing his katra? Is this a skill all Vulcans are taught, so he does it automatically?

- Khan's attack ship seems to be armed with heavy machine guns.

- Marcus walks past a row of ships, interesting for various reasons, and ending with the Vengeance! I missed this foreshadowing before as I was paying attention to the drama. (Although why he would publicly display a model of a top-secret project...)

- Once they are on the Enterprise, McCoy tells Kirk "Your vitals are way off." What does this mean?!? Does Kirk have cat-girl clap? That magic blood can cure all kinds of things...

- So, Keenser is basically Scotty's slave, right?

- "You don't rob a bank when the getaway car has a flat tire." What the hell does McCoy know about robbing banks?

- They fly a captured K'normian ship down to Kronos, K'normian being an obscure reference to TMP. It's a rather uninteresting ship, except for the circular seating arrangement for the cockpit area.

- Those moon fragments floating above Kronos are ridiculous - unless they were somehow infused with antigravitonium?

- The Khan/Klingon fight - we hear Klingon voices from various directions for no obvious reasons. All the voices seem to be done by the same guy.

- When Spock tells Kirk who Carol really is, he looks like a smug bastard.

- How did Scotty get a shuttlepod and fly it to Jupiter, and why did the baddies not notice him? If basic security is that bad, Marcus's scheme is doomed before it's begun. (Remember when Scott says "Are you Starfleet or private security?"; he was probably thinking "If you were Starfleet, you would have arrested me by now instead of making chit-chat, yer daft bugger.")

- The torpedos' fuel cells, which take up the bulk of the torpedos' profile, were replaced with cryopods. So how exactly were these torpedos supposed to be propelled?

- Why move Khan to medbay?

- Kirk and Khan crouch before the space-jump - an echo of Spock crouching before beaming in ST09?

- Every time people are dying on Enterprise, I can hear the same woman's scream.

- During Kirk's death scene, Spock looks emotional. Kirk just looks bloated.

- Spock chasing Kahn through SF - they're doing the Tom Cruise run!

- McCoy insists they need Khan's blood - couldn't he at least TRY the blood of one of the other 72 superhumans he has close at hand?

- Spock and Khan appear to be fighting on top of some sort of flying garbage truck. It looks filthy! Or is that grot the residue of the Vengeance crashing into SF?

- Kirk getting a flashback of Pike's motivational speech as he comes around is a nice touch.

- So will Khan etc be shipped to a secret warehouse to be worked on by "top men" - or will they be dropped off on Ceti Alpha V?

- "Space, the final frontier..." This speech nicely sets up that the NuTrek crew will finally go exploring (but Pine's delivery is painful; why didn't they re-do that ADR?).

- Sulu: "Captain does have a nice ring to it." Noooo!! What are those script writers trying to do? If we start hearing about Cho and Pine feuding because Cho thinks Pine is blocking his chance at a solo movie, we will know who to blame.

- I hate the unsubtle, brain-pounding end title music, which undoes the anticipation of exploration created at the end of the movie. I want something more mysterious and magical, dammit. The human adventure is just beginning, after all...​

 

[Nerys Myk]

- The cure Khan offers to save the little girl is his blood! The deus ex machina was there all along.

That and the tribble scene totally set up the resurrection of James T. Kirk.

- Once they are on the Enterprise, McCoy tells Kirk "Your vitals are way off." What does this mean?!? Does Kirk have cat-girl clap? That magic blood can cure all kinds of things...

Kirk's pissed off over the death of Pike. A rise in heart beat and blood pressure wouldn't be unusual.

- So, Keenser is basically Scotty's slave, right?

A Keenser is loyal, 100%

- "You don't rob a bank when the getaway car has a flat tire." What the hell does McCoy know about robbing banks?

I'm sure he's watched a movie or read a book.

- Those moon fragments floating above Kronos are ridiculous - unless they were somehow infused with antigravitonium?

Unobtainium.

- When Spock tells Kirk who Carol really is, he looks like a smug bastard.

It's his way.

- How did Scotty get a shuttlepod and fly it to Jupiter, and why did the baddies not notice him? If basic security is that bad, Marcus's scheme is doomed before it's begun. (Remember when Scott says "Are you Starfleet or private security?"; he was probably thinking "If you were Starfleet, you would have arrested me by now instead of making chit-chat, yer daft bugger.")

Starfleet security wrote the book on laxness. See almost any Trek episode.

- So will Khan etc be shipped to a secret warehouse to be worked on by "top men" - or will they be dropped off on Ceti Alpha V?

Top men. There's no reason to go to Ceti Alpha V.

 

[fireproof78]

I want to comment on a lot of them, but McCoy not using another superman seems a bit dangerous. First of all, he would be deliberate unfreezing the man, a process McCoy seemed hesitant to do in case it would kill him.

Also, the man's blood might not work the same way. Khan was always referred to as superior, stronger, able to heal, but I wonder if the same was said about the rest of his followers?

Have to revisit "Space Seed."

 

[eyeresist]

- Once they are on the Enterprise, McCoy tells Kirk "Your vitals are way off." What does this mean?!? Does Kirk have cat-girl clap? That magic blood can cure all kinds of things...

Kirk's pissed off over the death of Pike. A rise in heart beat and blood pressure wouldn't be unusual.

But should McCoy say something so alarmist unless something is seriously wrong? His line is more "You are seriously ill" than "Watch your blood pressure".

I want to comment on a lot of them, but McCoy not using another superman seems a bit dangerous. First of all, he would be deliberate unfreezing the man, a process McCoy seemed hesitant to do in case it would kill him.

Towards the end McCoy says "Get this guy out of the cryo tube. Keep him in an induced coma. We're gonna put Kirk inside. It's our only chance to preserve his brain function." So de-freezing someone doesn't seem to be a technical issue.

Whether Khan's blood properties are unique: there's no indication that Khan is anything special compared to his fellow superhumans*, and there's no reason McCoy can't inject a few dead tribbles and watch what happens.


*This reminds of me of something that bugs me about TWOK, which is the way Khan's minions are so subservient and obedient to him. In this respect I prefer ENT's arrogant Augments, whose alliances are only provisional.
_

 

[Trekkin]

I imagine when somone says 'guys, lets not wake up an Augment', they're not worrying about how dangerous that situation would be for the Augment.

Sure they could lock him up, but people have tried that with Khan in both universes and just get beaten up for their trouble. Once he's out and about, even an idiot like Malik managed to do a bit of damage just by running around like a lunatic.

There is a little evidence you could try and fanwank in for Khan being a bit more 'special' than the others - in TWOK, he's the last one standing in spite of (a) being the only senior citizen and (2) visibly getting the roof dropped on his head. Emphasis of 'fanwank'.

 

[Nerys Myk]

- Once they are on the Enterprise, McCoy tells Kirk "Your vitals are way off." What does this mean?!? Does Kirk have cat-girl clap? That magic blood can cure all kinds of things...

Kirk's pissed off over the death of Pike. A rise in heart beat and blood pressure wouldn't be unusual.

But should McCoy say something so alarmist unless something is seriously wrong? His line is more "You are seriously ill" than "Watch your blood pressure.

Probably because it's a sign of Kirk's mental state. He's upset, agitated and possibly not thinking clearly. So I don't think it's about Kirk being ill or stroking out.

 

[BillJ]

- Kirk is a punk from the beginning of the story: this is the story of his "seasoning". Sadly there wasn't an overt "I have learned something" speech at the end to make his growth clear.

Why? We saw his growth.

- The cure Khan offers to save the little girl is his blood! The deus ex machina was there all along.

Okay. At least it wasn't something created right at the end of the story that came out of left field

- Those curious military-style caps people are wearing around Starfleet headquarters. A slightly odd choice; don't know if they'll stick with that in later films.

There's one in Pike's quarters in "The Cage".

- Why does Spock mind-meld with dying Pike? Is he absorbing his katra? Is this a skill all Vulcans are taught, so he does it automatically?

I tend to believe he was trying to ease Pike's suffering.

- Khan's attack ship seems to be armed with heavy machine guns.

Smart. Sometimes you make a statement by making a mess.

- Marcus walks past a row of ships, interesting for various reasons, and ending with the Vengeance! I missed this foreshadowing before as I was paying attention to the drama. (Although why he would publicly display a model of a top-secret project...)

The design itself may not have been top secret.

- Once they are on the Enterprise, McCoy tells Kirk "Your vitals are way off." What does this mean?!? Does Kirk have cat-girl clap? That magic blood can cure all kinds of things...

Kirk is stressed out over the events he just witnessed.

- So, Keenser is basically Scotty's slave, right?

Seems like they are friends.

- "You don't rob a bank when the getaway car has a flat tire." What the hell does McCoy know about robbing banks?

What does it matter?

- They fly a captured K'normian ship down to Kronos, K'normian being an obscure reference to TMP. It's a rather uninteresting ship, except for the circular seating arrangement for the cockpit area.

It matching the outline of Mudd's ship from "Mudd's Women".

- Those moon fragments floating above Kronos are ridiculous - unless they were somehow infused with antigravitonium?

It is a movie. It looks great.

- When Spock tells Kirk who Carol really is, he looks like a smug bastard.

He figured out something faster than Kirk. I'd be a smug bastard too.

- How did Scotty get a shuttlepod and fly it to Jupiter, and why did the baddies not notice him? If basic security is that bad, Marcus's scheme is doomed before it's begun. (Remember when Scott says "Are you Starfleet or private security?"; he was probably thinking "If you were Starfleet, you would have arrested me by now instead of making chit-chat, yer daft bugger.")

Security has always been bad to downright terrible in Starfleet.

 

[Trekkin]

If it's introduced and it's use is shown earlier in a piece, I don't think a plot device can really be considered a 'deus ex machina'. That sounds closer to Chekhovs Gun.

 

[eyeresist]

I imagine when somone says 'guys, lets not wake up an Augment', they're not worrying about how dangerous that situation would be for the Augment.

No need to wake them up. "Induced coma", as McCoy said.

Kirk's pissed off over the death of Pike. A rise in heart beat and blood pressure wouldn't be unusual.

But should McCoy say something so alarmist unless something is seriously wrong? His line is more "You are seriously ill" than "Watch your blood pressure.

Probably because it's a sign of Kirk's mental state. He's upset, agitated and possibly not thinking clearly.

But isn't NuKirk always like that?

- Kirk is a punk from the beginning of the story: this is the story of his "seasoning". Sadly there wasn't an overt "I have learned something" speech at the end to make his growth clear.

Why? We saw his growth.

What growth did we see? He was shamed by Spock into not launching missiles at Kronos, but after Khan surrenders (having just saved Kirk's life and asked an intriguing question about the number of torpedos), Kirk attacks his prisoner. Later, Kirk saves the ship (what else would he do?).

The movie starts with Kirk breaking rules at Nibiru, as a consequence of which Pike tells him off for thinking he is above the regs, and for not "respecting the chair". I don't think there are any story beats where Kirk learns the importance of being faithful to the regs, or being honest about his actions. Okay, Kirk deciding not to bombard Kronos fits the first category, but that happens at the end of the first act; what comes after?

(Please bear in mind I'm not an anti-JJ fanatic, I'm just raising some issues.)

 

[Nerys Myk]

Probably because it's a sign of Kirk's mental state. He's upset, agitated and possibly not thinking clearly.

But isn't NuKirk always like that?

Nah, his default is cocky, smug and over confident.

 

[The Wormhole]

- Why does Spock mind-meld with dying Pike? Is he absorbing his katra? Is this a skill all Vulcans are taught, so he does it automatically?

Doesn't Spock explain later on in the movie it was so he could experience what death felt like?

 

[eyeresist]

- Why does Spock mind-meld with dying Pike? Is he absorbing his katra? Is this a skill all Vulcans are taught, so he does it automatically?

Doesn't Spock explain later on in the movie it was so he could experience what death felt like?

Spock says:

It is true I chose not to feel anything upon realizing that my own life was ending. As Admiral Pike was dying, I joined with his consciousness and experienced what he felt at the moment of his passing. Anger. Confusion. Loneliness. Fear. I had experienced those feelings before, multiplied exponentially on the day my planet was destroyed. Such a feeling is something I choose never to experience again.

So you can read that into what he says, but he doesn't give a clear explanation (and why would he meld with Pike if he had chosen not to experience such feelings again?). I guess I'm thinking of katras because of the TWOK references in the film - and also because I'd like to see Pike again.

 

[fireproof78]

I imagine when somone says 'guys, lets not wake up an Augment', they're not worrying about how dangerous that situation would be for the Augment.

No need to wake them up. "Induced coma", as McCoy said.

Probably because it's a sign of Kirk's mental state. He's upset, agitated and possibly not thinking clearly.

But isn't NuKirk always like that?

- Kirk is a punk from the beginning of the story: this is the story of his "seasoning". Sadly there wasn't an overt "I have learned something" speech at the end to make his growth clear.

Why? We saw his growth.

What growth did we see? He was shamed by Spock into not launching missiles at Kronos, but after Khan surrenders (having just saved Kirk's life and asked an intriguing question about the number of torpedos), Kirk attacks his prisoner. Later, Kirk saves the ship (what else would he do?).

The movie starts with Kirk breaking rules at Nibiru, as a consequence of which Pike tells him off for thinking he is above the regs, and for not "respecting the chair". I don't think there are any story beats where Kirk learns the importance of being faithful to the regs, or being honest about his actions. Okay, Kirk deciding not to bombard Kronos fits the first category, but that happens at the end of the first act; what comes after?

(Please bear in mind I'm not an anti-JJ fanatic, I'm just raising some issues.)

It's a fair question, but I just took it a different way.

I did not see Spock "shaming" Kirk in to not firing the torpedoes. I think that Spock did what often happened in TOS-Kirk was deciding upon a course of action and it was questioned by Spock or McCoy. The exchange reminds me of one from TOS' Conscience of the King":

McCoy: You sure it's about justice. You sure it's not about revenge?

Kirk (pauses a beat): No, I'm not.

The difference between the two situations is Prime Kirk recognizes his fallibility while nu-Kirk is still learning that fact.

Speaking of that, I took Kirk's character growth to be reflected not in his following the rules but his change of attitude towards making mistakes. Before Nibiru, and really until Marcus' attacks with the Vengeance, Kirk believes he is abve making mistakes. It's only in the middle of a very bad situation that he realizes his mistake, and that in order to salvage that mistake, someone has to die.

I don't think Kirk learns to follow the rules, because Kirk was always about following the rules. I think Kirk grew and learned that he had to make choices with a more cautious, introspective, attitude, than a cavalier one.

That's my two cents, any way.

 

[eyeresist]

Before Nibiru, and really until Marcus' attacks with the Vengeance, Kirk believes he is abve making mistakes. It's only in the middle of a very bad situation that he realizes his mistake, and that in order to salvage that mistake, someone has to die.

Can you identify Kirk's moment of revelation specifically? I mean, when do we see it on screen?

 

[fireproof78]

Before Nibiru, and really until Marcus' attacks with the Vengeance, Kirk believes he is abve making mistakes. It's only in the middle of a very bad situation that he realizes his mistake, and that in order to salvage that mistake, someone has to die.

Can you identify Kirk's moment of revelation specifically? I mean, when do we see it on screen?

I take it in two scenes. The first being his apology to the Bridge crew right before he thinks the Vengeance is going to fire (and Scotty saves the day).

Also, the moment where Scotty explains that how to restart the reactor and Kirk doesn't hesitate to go on the suicide mission.

Again, that's my read on it, but in both those moments, Kirk is humble enough to recognize that there is no other way out and messed up.

 

[eyeresist]

Before Nibiru, and really until Marcus' attacks with the Vengeance, Kirk believes he is abve making mistakes. It's only in the middle of a very bad situation that he realizes his mistake, and that in order to salvage that mistake, someone has to die.

Can you identify Kirk's moment of revelation specifically? I mean, when do we see it on screen?

I take it in two scenes. The first being his apology to the Bridge crew right before he thinks the Vengeance is going to fire (and Scotty saves the day).

Also, the moment where Scotty explains that how to restart the reactor and Kirk doesn't hesitate to go on the suicide mission.

Again, that's my read on it, but in both those moments, Kirk is humble enough to recognize that there is no other way out and messed up.

Kirk doesn't actually apologise to the crew. He says:

Sir, my crew was just following my orders. I take full responsibility for my actions. But they were mine and they were mine alone. If I transmit Khan's location to you now, all that I ask is that you spare them. Please, sir. I'll do anything you want. Just let them live.

I admit this could qualify as a character-changing moment to do with taking responsibility, but the moment flies by without comment when the film-makers should really have given it more weight.

Also, as far as responsibility goes, he is actually apologising to the villain for doing the right thing, which doesn't really answer Pike's challenge, not directly anyway.

 

[Trekkin]

Nope, he apologises to the crew. After Marcus does the long winded equivalent of 'nyeh, nyeh, nyeh-nyeh nyeh' and cuts the transmission off, Kirk turns around and says 'I'm sorry' to the Bridge (and looking specifically at Spock).

The conversation with Marcus was him trying to convince Marcus that the crew were not a loose end that Marcus had to clean up - they didn't know about S31, and had no investment in protecting Khan. He was tying to spin that Marcus could get rid of him and Khan, and all Marcus problems would be over. His apology to the crew was acknowledging it was his decisions that put them in that position in the first place.

Nor was he apologising for doing the right thing - he was apologising for purposefully following orders that he knew were illegal (going to Kronos), knew could have consequences (starting an interstellar war), and that he knew that he should have considered further before accepting (Spock, Scotty and McCoy berating him before they left).

 

[fireproof78]

Nope, he apologises to the crew. After Marcus does the long winded equivalent of 'nyeh, nyeh, nyeh-nyeh nyeh' and cuts the transmission off, Kirk turns around and says 'I'm sorry' to the Bridge (and looking specifically at Spock).

The conversation with Marcus was him trying to convince Marcus that the crew were not a loose end that Marcus had to clean up - they didn't know about S31, and had no investment in protecting Khan. He was tying to spin that Marcus could get rid of him and Khan, and all Marcus problems would be over. His apology to the crew was acknowledging it was his decisions that put them in that position in the first place.

Nor was he apologising for doing the right thing - he was apologising for purposefully following orders that he knew were illegal (going to Kronos), knew could have consequences (starting an interstellar war), and that he knew that he should have considered further before accepting (Spock, Scotty and McCoy berating him before they left)".

Exactly so.

I'll agree with eyeresist in that moment is not given enough time to breath, but the moment is there. Its a sobering moment as Kirk realizes his choices doomed his crew to death and it was all his fault.

Sorry, that is a character changing moment in my opinion.

 

[eyeresist]

Nope, he apologises to the crew. After Marcus does the long winded equivalent of 'nyeh, nyeh, nyeh-nyeh nyeh' and cuts the transmission off, Kirk turns around and says 'I'm sorry' to the Bridge (and looking specifically at Spock).

Good point, I forgot that. Still, they could have expanded and developed the issue.

Nor was he apologising for doing the right thing

In that bit I was referring to his plea to Marcus (which Marcus called an apology), not the moment where he says sorry to his crew.

 

[Timo]

That McCoy worries about Kirk's health after the physical and mental blows is simply the writers' way of giving the hero character an excuse for even considering being eeeeevil and going through with the assassination.

This is unnecessary IMHO. Kirk could be acting like that even without having received a blow in the head or whatever, and then recovering in the nick of time, with no ill effect on the heroism of the character. "I stopped being evil because my owie healed" in turn detracts from mental Kirk's recovery.

As for Khan's healing blood vs. other options, it's quite possible that Khan is the only one with that sort of blood. Not because he was engineered that way, but because he had access to 23rd century medicine after being thawed out and enslaved by Marcus - and used that access, in combination with his smarts and devious imagination, to create a means to blackmail Harewood. He just didn't see the need to remove the nifty feature afterwards.

Timo Saloniemi