The Vulcans

[2takesfrakes]

Let's face it - Mr. Spock, Sarek and Tuvok do not represent the typical Vulcan, if the rest of this franchise is anything to go by. There's always some technicality, or trumped-up excuse for it, but Vulcans are seldom portrayed as being stoic ... and dignified. What are your feelings on these people and their world as they've been portrayed in STAR TREK?

It's my judgment, personally, that Spock, Sarek and Tuvok did it the "right" way.

 

[φ of π]

For a culture that prides itself on being emotionless and logical, they sure do have a lot of rituals and ceremonies.

 

[Tracy Trek]

Well one would think it would be illogical to judge others on things that are just normal for them. Vulcans seem to do a lot of that (judging) anyway.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Guest Vulcans: Bad actors with bad haircuts.

 

[USS Triumphant]

My argument would be that *none* of them have "done it right". Tuvok's method of emotional control seemed to be to maintain an almost constant time-released form of irritation. Sarek was pretty good at it, but he had an ego, both for himself and for his people and culture, that he only seemed to overcome when his family was in danger - and then, only until the danger had passed, it would seem.

And Spock, for most of his life, was perhaps worst of all - I mean, yes, we regard him as the template Vulcan because he was the first we were familiarized with. And he had the same more-Vulcan-than-Vulcan thing going on that Worf had with his Klingon-ness, later - but in both cases, at the core, that behavior was about insecurity: Spock's insecurity that being half-human meant he was somehow "not Vulcan enough" (and Worf's insecurity that being raised by humans made him "not Klingon enough" - combined with him having been taught an ideal of what Klingons are by his human parents rather than being around *real* Klingons who, like most people, fail their own ideals regularly). Which means (ironically?) that Spock being so "good at being Vulcan" was a manifestation of what may have been his greatest *failing* as a logical Vulcan. Only after his death and return did we see him finally become comfortable in his own skin, which in a way made him a better Vulcan precisely *because* he no longer illogically cared so much about being a good Vulcan.

BTW: By the account in "Spock's World", Surak himself didn't "do it right". What he wrote and taught were ideals - but he made plenty of decisions that were moved by emotion. In truth, his very first conception of his teachings was moved by fear and sadness and a will to do something about them for his world.

 

[Paradise City]

The latter part of DS9, they had Vulcans presented as cold and soulless. I'm thinking of the Vulcan baseball and assassin episodes. Whereas the Vulcan Maquis in the Maquis two parter was a more engaging representation of a Vulcan. Rank & file Vulcans in Enterprise generally conformed to the cold and soulless type as well.

The thing about the Vulcans is that their 'religion' seems to be accurate enough. They can capture katras/souls and what not and this is witnessed. Exactly what scientific instrumentation makes of all this is another question.

 

[NaughtyTrekkie]

For a culture that prides itself on being emotionless and logical, they sure do have a lot of rituals and ceremonies.

isn't pride an emotion of some kind?

 

[NaughtyTrekkie]

let's face the reality, vulcans just have no sense

 

[Ronald Held]

Despite the culture of rationality amd logic. Every Vulcan is not the same.

 

[Six of Twelve]

My argument would be that *none* of them have "done it right". Tuvok's method of emotional control seemed to be to maintain an almost constant time-released form of irritation. Sarek was pretty good at it, but he had an ego, both for himself and for his people and culture, that he only seemed to overcome when his family was in danger - and then, only until the danger had passed, it would seem.

And Spock, for most of his life, was perhaps worst of all - I mean, yes, we regard him as the template Vulcan because he was the first we were familiarized with. And he had the same more-Vulcan-than-Vulcan thing going on that Worf had with his Klingon-ness, later - but in both cases, at the core, that behavior was about insecurity: Spock's insecurity that being half-human meant he was somehow "not Vulcan enough" (and Worf's insecurity that being raised by humans made him "not Klingon enough" - combined with him having been taught an ideal of what Klingons are by his human parents rather than being around *real* Klingons who, like most people, fail their own ideals regularly). Which means (ironically?) that Spock being so "good at being Vulcan" was a manifestation of what may have been his greatest *failing* as a logical Vulcan. Only after his death and return did we see him finally become comfortable in his own skin, which in a way made him a better Vulcan precisely *because* he no longer illogically cared so much about being a good Vulcan.

BTW: By the account in "Spock's World", Surak himself didn't "do it right". What he wrote and taught were ideals - but he made plenty of decisions that were moved by emotion. In truth, his very first conception of his teachings was moved by fear and sadness and a will to do something about them for his world.

Both Spock and Worf didn't get the idea that being Vulcan or Klingon isn't something you *do*, it's something you *are*. Being Vulcan or Klingon (or any other species, for that matter), isn't an activity, it's a state of being, a biological fact. It's like the old quip goes, "I'm a human being, not a human doing".

Similarly, with Seven of Nine, she didn't "become more human" after her separation from the collective and her de-assimilation. Rather, she acquired more human values, but was already biologically human, albeit retaining some Borg modifications. Or to use her speech patterns, she assimilated human values. .

 

[Tenacity]

For a culture that prides itself on being emotionless and logical, they sure do have a lot of rituals and ceremonies.

How do you feel that the first two do not go with the second two?

 

[Kor]

How do you feel that the first two do not go with the second two?

Vulcan rituals and ceremonies seem to be unnecessarily couched in mysticism and/or ancient, "pre-logic" cultural traditions that are no longer relevant to the rationalistic Vulcan society of the 23rd/24th centuries. It seems illogical to maintain them.

Kor

 

[Six of Twelve]

Certainly, the "fight for your mate " scene in Amok Time bore no relation to rationality or logic. It was barbaric, as well as sexist. Surely, logic would dictate that T'pring should have contacted Spock long before the pon farr occurred and just told hum she wished to marry Stonn instead and broken the agreement.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Like followers of any religion, they have lofty ideals but seldom achieve them.

 

[You must talk to Spot]

Certainly, the "fight for your mate " scene in Amok Time bore no relation to rationality or logic. It was barbaric, as well as sexist. Surely, logic would dictate that T'pring should have contacted Spock long before the pon farr occurred and just told hum she wished to marry Stonn instead and broken the agreement.

I agree!! I actually read quite a good article recently dealing with sexism, racism and homophobia in Vulcan society, it really kinda opened up my eyes lol... (If anyone'seen interested, you can find it here.)

 

[Nerys Myk]

For a culture that prides itself on being emotionless and logical, they sure do have a lot of rituals and ceremonies.

They need structure. Romulans are the same only their structure comes in the form of devotion to the State.

 

[TheSubCommander]

The biggest failing of the Vulcans is that they buy into their own hype that they are infallible. They seem to believe that logic leads to perfection. Logic does not equal perfection. One can still be perfectly logical, but still be wrong. Not to mention, at the end of the day, the Vulcans are emotional beings like all the other races in the Trek universe. Arguably, as passionate as Romulans, and even more emotional in their natural state than humans, and maybe even Klingons. So, I think the Vulcan who is perfectly logical is the anomaly, not the Vulcan who tries to live up to the ideal of Surak, but falls short, from time to time. Indeed, if it were so common for Vulcans to be perfectly logical, why would Vulcans have a ritual for Kolinahr? No, I think that Surak's teachings of logic are an ideal to strive for, but few actually attain. SO, it is reasonable to assume most Vulcans are emotional but just do a better job at suppressing it that most other beings. But their emotions do get the better of them on occasion. Some more so than others.

 

[UnknownSample]

The primitivism of the mating ritual isn't some logical oversight. The whole thing is primitive, it's about bringing the necessary mating urge up out of the mental depths they've all pushed it down into. Raw illogical impulse is what the whole event is about, and the pon farr ceremony reflects that. Trying to make something logical out of it would defeat the purpose.

 

[2takesfrakes]

"Amok Time" demonstrate, at least to me, how STAR TREK will totally screw up a really cool concept, in favour of ratings ... and making Life easier for these shitty-assed writers. I've discussed this with others, so I know I'm not alone, in this. If Vulcan had appeared as it should've - as an ordered, almost computeresque society ... it would've proved boring to watch. So, how to remedy that? Basically by deconstructing all of that with rituals and raging hormones all leading to a fight to the death!

Everything that made the Vulcans so cool ... the mystery ... the rationalistic society ... went down Mister Toilet to keep viewers from changing the channel. In my view, visiting Vulcan in TOS was the worst thing that could've happened to Vulcans. I'm just so glad for Sarek. He's a credit to his race and my favourite of the lot. Mark Lenard was just so dignified and authoritative in his performance. Very classy all around. They don't make actors like that, anymore ...

 

[C.E. Evans]

The idea that Vulcans are totally without emotions has always been a myth. They suppress their emotions, but they are always fairly close to the surface (save for those that undergo and master Kolinahr--which both Spock and Tuvok failed for different reasons). Logic merely gave Vulcans focus and the ability to rationalize the things they do, but Vulcans have never been perfect. They can do things that were logical, but still not necessarily right. Vulcans likely even use logic to justify the continual observance of some ancient and barbaric rituals from before the Time of Awakening.