The Sith Rule of Two: A Unifying Theory of the Skywalker Saga (spoilers for Rise Of Skywalker)

[JD]

@JD Wookiepeedia hasn't codified TRoS' reclassification of the Rule of Two as an immortality ritual into their articles, but that doesn't make said reclassification any less clear-cut or Canonically valid.

According to you.

 

[Reverend]

Wookiepeedia is not the arbiter of canon. Like all wiki's, it's a handy way to check a source (if any) for a particular piece of information, nothing more.

As for how TRoS impacts the rule of two: it really doesn't. Yes there's some half baked 'Highlander' rip-off concepts there, but half baked derivative concepts are pretty much what the whole ST is built from.

To my way of thinking the formal 'Rule of Two' is as Lucas conceived it: something Darth Bane created to not only preserve the legacy of the Sith from their constant infighting, but to harness it's infighting to guarantee it's continuation.

Yoda's line doesn't betray any knowledge of the Sith surviving post Bane; that's simply how they always operated in pairs, just as it is with the Jedi: One Master, one Apprentice.
This parallel is emphasised in 'Rebels' as we see both ancient Jedi and ancient Sith temples only unlock for both Master and apprentice, never just one or the other. Remember that the Sith and the Jedi have a common origin as two denominations of essentially the same religion, so the Sith retain much of their Jedi forebears' practices.
So in a sense Bane didn't create a rule of two so much as refine it down from "Sith always work in pairs of Master & Apprentice" to "There can only be one pair of Sith at a time".

As for what the whole "I am all the Sith/Jedi" is about; I choose to take that figuratively because the other way lies madness and plot holes.

 

[USS Firefly]

Yoda never met a Sith until he saw Dooku in AOTC, so maybe the Sith have changed that rule without his knowledge.

 

[Reverend]

Yoda never met a Sith until he saw Dooku in AOTC, so maybe the Sith have changed that rule without his knowledge.

It's not an arbitrary rule though, it's a reality of what the Sith are; If there's three Sith in any dynamic, then two of them will turn on the third. If there's less than two, then their legacy dies with them. Even the founder of the Sith Order fell prey to this as his own followers murdered him to gain power.

Sith are fundamentally selfish. Selflessness and cooperation without personal advantage just doesn't make sense to them. It's why Vader is so despondent at the end of ESB that he doesn't even bother to execute Piett; he can't wrap his head around why Luke turned down power when it was offered to him. It's why Sidious never foresaw Luke throwing down his saber.

Like I said, there's ample evidence that the Sith have always worked in pairs (or at least since the founder, whomever that was) and those pairs were always Master/apprentice dynamics. Either the Apprentice kills the Master and usurps their power, or the Master replaces them for being too weak. If you get two Masters working together, they will inevitably try and kill one another.
This is also where Palpatine spoke of Sith Empires plural. It wasn't one Sith Empire ruling the galaxy, it was several. Maybe dozens, maybe hundreds at certain points. All constantly vying for power, making alliances and breaking them, consolidating and disintegrating from infighting. Over and over until Darth Bane was the only survivor.

It's an element I hope they retain when they inevitably get to telling the story of that era; the Jedi didn't defeat the Sith and save the galaxy, the Sith defeated themselves and the surviving Jedi helped clean up the mess they'd helped create in the first place.

For those that don't know, here's an excerpt from the Terry Brook novelisation of TPM and it's the closest thing we have to Lucas's background notes on the subject (for context, this is Maul's inner monologue during the balcony scene): -

His thoughts were of the Sith and of the history of their order.

The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago. They were a cult given over to the dark side of the Force, embracing fully the concept that power denied was power wasted. A rogue Jedi Knight had founded the Sith, a singular dissident in an order of harmonious followers, a rebel who understood from the beginning that the real power of the Force lay not in the light, but in the dark. Failing to gain approval for his beliefs from the Council, he had broken with the order, departing with his knowledge and his skills, swearing in secret that he could bring down those who nad dismissed him.
He was alone at first, but others from the Jedi order who believed as he did and who had followed him in his study of the dark side soon came over. Others were recruited, and soon the ranks of the Sith swelled to than fifty in number. Disdaining the concepts of cooperation and consensus, relying on the belief that acquisition of power in any form lends strength and yields control, the Sith began to build their cult in opposition to the Jedi. Theirs was not an order created to serve; theirs was an order created to dominate.
Their war with the Jedi was vengeful and furious and ultimately doomed. The rogue Jedi who had founded the Sith order was its nominal leader, but his ambition excluded any sharing of power. His disciples began to conspire against him and each other almost from the beginning, so that the war they instigated was as much with each other as with the Jedi. In the end, the Sith destroyed themselves. They destroyed their leader first, then each other. What few survived the initial bloodbath were quickly dispatched by watchful Jedi. In a matter of only weeks, all of them died.
All but one....
....The Sith who had survived when all of his fellows had died had understood that. He had adopted patience as a virtue when the others had forsaken it. He had adopted cunning, stealth, and subterfuge as the foundation of his way-old Jedi virtues the others had disdained. He stood aside while the Sith tore at each other like kriks and were destroyed. When the carnage was complete, he went into hiding, biding his time, waiting for his chance.
When it was believed all of the Sith were destroyed, he emerged from his concealment. At first he worked alone, but he was growing old and he was the last of his kind. Eventually, he went out in search of an apprentice. Finding one, he trained him to be a Master in his turn, then to find his own apprentice, and so to carry on their work. But there would only be two at anyone time. There would be no repetition of the mistakes of the old order, no struggle between Siths warring for power within the cult. Their common enemy was the Jedi, not each other. It was for their war with the Jedi they must save themselves.
The Sith who reinvented the order called himself Darth Bane. A thousand years had passed since the Sith were believed destroyed, and the time they had waited for had come at last.

I should also note that unlike the later novelisations, this was commissioned as a straight up adaptation of the script and whatever materials LF provided; not an EU adaptation like the later two. I recall reading somewhere that Brooks spent hours on the phone with Lucas at one point just discussing the history of the Jedi and the Sith, so with that in mind it's likely much of the above passage came out of that conversation, straight from GL.

 

[Xerxes82]

But, again, the Rule of Two doesn't make sense if it's just about training and organization. Why train an apprentice at all? So the Sith will live on? Why does the current member of the Sith care? Continuing an order or organization is by necessity a selfless act, one focused on the well being or advancement of others over oneself. Why on any given piece of earth would a Sith Lord care?

This is the fundamental problem I have with them. A Sith Empire is impossible, precisely because the Sith don't play well with others. But the EXACT SAME PROBLEM applies to the Master/Apprentice dynamic. Particularly when the apprentice's entire goal is to kill the master. I'm just not seeing the upside for the Master in this. Why is he doing it? There must be something in it for them. Something compelling enough that taking an apprentice becomes essential, and not just suicidal.

More clever people than me can probably do better, but the only two reasons I can come up with for a Sith Lord ever training an apprentice are as an accomplice/pawn or as a means to test themselves and their power. And there are better, more profitable and less dangerous avenues for both of those things. Unless we're going to argue that the entire Sith Order has perpetuated itself solely on the utter hubris of every Sith Lord that has ever lived, and not one of them ever got wise and just did their own thing, I don't think the Sith even work as an organization without something like the ritual transfer theory.

 

[fireproof78]

The Sith are selfish but they are not always short sighted. The ability to delay gratification is a fundamental aspect of behavior to support long distance planning. It's why there are pay days. The Sith would want an empire to facilitate gathering as much power as possible to further their ends. So, if they want a goal of destroying the Jedi an Empire would be a way to go, ensuring that their power is preserved to ultimately subdue the galaxy and destroy the Jedi.

 

[JD]

Wookiepeedia is not the arbiter of canon. Like all wiki's, it's a handy way to check a source (if any) for a particular piece of information, nothing more.

Oh, I know that, I was just looking for a source for @DigificWriter's interpretation beyond himself, and I figured if it was anywhere someone would have added the information to Wookiepedia. The fact that there is nothing about it on there, then makes me think it hasn't actually come up in any canon sources, so it's not actually the canon interpretation.

But, again, the Rule of Two doesn't make sense if it's just about training and organization. Why train an apprentice at all? So the Sith will live on? Why does the current member of the Sith care? Continuing an order or organization is by necessity a selfless act, one focused on the well being or advancement of others over oneself. Why on any given piece of earth would a Sith Lord care?

This is the fundamental problem I have with them. A Sith Empire is impossible, precisely because the Sith don't play well with others. But the EXACT SAME PROBLEM applies to the Master/Apprentice dynamic. Particularly when the apprentice's entire goal is to kill the master. I'm just not seeing the upside for the Master in this. Why is he doing it? There must be something in it for them. Something compelling enough that taking an apprentice becomes essential, and not just suicidal.

More clever people than me can probably do better, but the only two reasons I can come up with for a Sith Lord ever training an apprentice are as an accomplice/pawn or as a means to test themselves and their power. And there are better, more profitable and less dangerous avenues for both of those things. Unless we're going to argue that the entire Sith Order has perpetuated itself solely on the utter hubris of every Sith Lord that has ever lived, and not one of them ever got wise and just did their own thing, I don't think the Sith even work as an organization without something like the ritual transfer theory.

I see as a show of strength and ability, their apprentice killing them is proof that they were good enough to train someone who was able to kill them. That means that the Sith are getting stronger, and are one step closing to eliminating the Jedi and taking control of the galaxy.

 

[David cgc]

One would assume that, at least occasionally, a Master lives to die of old age.

 

[Xerxes82]

I see as a show of strength and ability, their apprentice killing them is proof that they were good enough to train someone who was able to kill them. That means that the Sith are getting stronger, and are one step closing to eliminating the Jedi and taking control of the galaxy.

But, again, why does a Sith Lord care that the Sith are getting stronger and closer to eliminate the Jedi... if they aren't going to be there to see it? You see the fundamental problem here?

Why does a selfish, power grasping, master planner who has every angle covered.... leave their plan to somebody else? I'm not arguing that the Sith can't delay gratification or be patient, just that patience has a hard limit at death. And that the Sith creed is inherently at odds with the act of extending their thinking beyond themselves in the way that would incite them to view any kind of Sith Order as a meaningful endeavor. A Sith craves power FOR HIMSELF/HERSELF/ITSELF. Why does it care to pass that power onto someone else?

The closest we've come to a reason in this thread so far seems to be that the Sith hate the Jedi more than they crave power for themselves. That ultimately they are creatures of ideology. But that doesn't describe Palpatine. He craved power for himself and himself alone. Wiping out the Jedi was simply a necessary element to ensure he could keep that power after he took it.

The Sith would want an empire to facilitate gathering as much power as possible to further their ends.

And yet, at least as far as the Disney ST is concerned, it was Palpatine himself who gave the order that ultimately dismantled the Empire. On the basis that an Empire should never outlive it's emperor. He orchestrated a conspiracy to burn down the old Empire and tear down pretty much everything he had built, with only the most hardcore of the hardcore fleeing into the Unknown Regions to form what would become The First Order. (And, as it turns out, to ultimately serve Palpatine yet again.)

Now, we know that in universe Palpatine survived. Likely had plans to survive and expected as much. But this isn't a guy who had any interest in securing an orderly Empire for any kind of long term, at least not any term longer than himself.

 

[fireproof78]

The closest we've come to a reason in this thread so far seems to be that the Sith hate the Jedi more than they crave power for themselves. T

Yes.

 

[DigificWriter]

Re: the TPM novelization, Lucas allowed, encouraged, and in some cases even insisted that Terry Brooks put his own spin on the Episode I script during the process of adapting it.

 

[fireproof78]

Re: the TPM novelization, Lucas allowed, encouraged, and in some cases even insisted that Terry Brooks put his own spin on the Episode I script during the process of adapting it.

Still one of the more interesting novels, especially regarding Anakin.

 

[DigificWriter]

I've sat in an auditorium and listened to Terry talk about his novelization of TPM, and can attest that he considers it an honor and privilege to have been entrusted with its production.

 

[Reverend]

RE: Sith master motivations: A lone Sith Master is vulnerable. They need an apprentice of comparable skill to act as their agent. The dark side, or perhaps just the force in general seems to magnify around two in a way it doesn't around a single person. So it's in a Master's best interest to find a strong apprentice to draw in more power for themselves.

One would assume that, at least occasionally, a Master lives to die of old age.

Very rarely, I'd say. Since that would probably mean either that the apprentice is very weak and/or overly patient to the point of indolence, and as such unworthy and unlikely to train a worthy apprentice of their own and all of a sudden, no more Sith Order. It's part of the reason I never liked the idea that Palpatine was still Plagueis's apprentice all the way up to TPM. He would have taken his secrets and done away with him at the earliest opportunity IMO.

Recall in the Darth Vader comics Palpatine was damn near overjoyed when Vader finally started plotting against his Master. He'd thought for a while there that he'd lost his potency.

Re: the TPM novelization, Lucas allowed, encouraged, and in some cases even insisted that Terry Brooks put his own spin on the Episode I script during the process of adapting it.

That generally seems more to do with the extended scenes like with Anakin and the Tuskens and the depiction of previous pod race, mentioned but unseen in the movie.

This was straight up lore dump that's fundamentally important to the saga as a whole. I doubt he'd make that up off his own back. It had to come from Lucas.

 

[fireproof78]

RE: Sith master motivations: A lone Sith Master is vulnerable. They need an apprentice of comparable skill to act as their agent. The dark side, or perhaps just the force in general seems to magnify around two in a way it doesn't around a single person. So it's in a Master's best interest to find a strong apprentice to draw in more power for themselves.

That is a reason why I see having an Empire as fundamentally in line with the Sith goals. They want to consolidate power to assert their own dominance. I know in one junior novelization with Maul there was Sidious hinting that he had another apprentice that would do his bidding and succeed where Maul failed. Turned out to be a lie (of sorts) but it motivated Maul to continue forward. In the novel it was to the point of concealing an injury to prevent Sidious from knowing his weakness.

 

[JD]

But, again, why does a Sith Lord care that the Sith are getting stronger and closer to eliminate the Jedi... if they aren't going to be there to see it? You see the fundamental problem here?

Why does a selfish, power grasping, master planner who has every angle covered.... leave their plan to somebody else? I'm not arguing that the Sith can't delay gratification or be patient, just that patience has a hard limit at death. And that the Sith creed is inherently at odds with the act of extending their thinking beyond themselves in the way that would incite them to view any kind of Sith Order as a meaningful endeavor. A Sith craves power FOR HIMSELF/HERSELF/ITSELF. Why does it care to pass that power onto someone else?

I guess I just never really saw them as being purely selfish, and more about being as powerful as possible in general. And like I said, the ultimate show of power for them is training an apprentice good enough to kill them. It would also be a way for the apprentice to have a motivation to become as powerful as possible.

 

[Ithekro]

And in The Clone Wars, we see Sidious mop the floor with Maul and Savage. He even looked like he was having fun.

In Rebels, only Ashoka proves to even have a chance against Darth Vader. He is clearly stronger than she is, but she is faster and more nibble. (also she learned from the best...whom she's fighting).

Sidious has an entirely unfair advantage over Vader, in that Sidious had Vader's suit designed to be vulnerable to Sith Lightning. Vader can't really fight Sidious directly and he knows it. Until Luke shows up, Vader has no notions about taking Sidious, but two Skywalkers together? That should be enough to take down the Emperor.