The Shadows Were Right - (B5 Spoilers)

[Brent]

Thanks to tomalak301's recent thread, I am now half way through my 3rd time through the entire series. I have come to a conclusion I haven't thought of before, The Shadows were actually right!

Think about it, if not for The Shadows inciting war and conflict the Whitestar's would have never been created, the Rangers would have never been assembled, Sheridan would never have succeeded in creating a strong alliance of worlds, technology would not have advanced as fast as it did in a short amount of time, like the method or not, through The Shadows actions came a much stronger standing of Humans, Minbari and other races.

Maybe the methods weren't right, but The Shadows ideology actually worked out, the strong survived and were made stronger out of it, alliances were formed, new technological development came i.e. Whitestars and then the Victory Class Destroyer. For all we know Sheridan may never have separated from Earth at all if there was no such thing as The Shadow war. Sinclair would never have gone back in time to be Valen if not for The Shadow war of a thousand years ago, the merging of Human and Minbari souls may never have happened if not for The Shadows!!!!!

The Shadows succeeded in making us stronger, their plan worked, the Vorlon's, not so much, it seems we were always just cannon fodder for them.

 

[miraclefan]

I figuerd that out during the CALL TO ARMS TV movie. If the Shadows didn't start the war to begin with there would have been no VICTORY Class destroyer & no ISA. If you think about it. If not for war in real life, technology would not have advanced as far as it did in the 20th century!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Shadows were wrong. So was Jean-Baptiste Emmanuel Zorg.

Ever hear of the parable of the broken window?

 

[Manticore]

But the Shadow philosophies were antithetical to the ISA and the new era of peace that it spawned and apparently lasted at least a million years...so in a way, the Vorlons were right too.

That's the beauty of it. Neither was completely right, and neither completely wrong.

 

[gastrof]

If you don't make trouble for other people, they don't feel a need to make weapons to use against you, and as a result everyone lives in peace.

The Shadows simply created a situation where it ended up SEEMING they'd been right, if you don't consider how things would have been if they hadn't done all their dark deeds in the first place.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

That's the beauty of it. Neither was completely right, and neither completely wrong.

No wonder I didn't like this show.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I used to play the B5 card game a lot.

In character.

I almost always played Shadows and I could rant on and on about how the srong would survive... America i understand has (at least) two modes for it's economy, war and peace. At the end of WWII, they were supposed to switch back to peace mode but Truman didn't think that that idea was sexy.

 

[Trubinator]

I think the whole point of the series was that both the Vorlons and the Shadows were simultaneously right AND wrong. The Shadow ideology produced a war that lead to evolution and ultimately ... order. But as we learned, chaos couldn't be sustained. Conversely, the Vorlon ideology also lead to war and ultimately ... chaos. But as we learned, order couldn't be sustained indefinitely either.

The series was highly ironic in that both sides (while in power) seemingly produced the inverse of the ideas they were advocating. And also, you'll note that life seemed to follow a complex interweaving of these paths. Therefore, I think it's inappropriate to say that any side (e.g. Vorlons, Shadows, Interstellar Alliance) was right.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If that's true, I wonder how many statues were built of Clarke?

Seriously?

They hung a sign around his neck?

the crowd took turns shitting in Mussolini's mouth before they hung him from a lamppost... Y'know which is why Hitler made sure his body was was destroyed as well as it could be under the circumstances.

Remember the first time it came to staring match and one of your parents tried to beat you because it was easier than justifying how they were right and you were wrong, but they couldn't?

 

[Manticore]

That's the beauty of it. Neither was completely right, and neither completely wrong.

No wonder I didn't like this show.

I used to love B5 around 12 years ago (when I was 12), but I can't get into it now. The acting and dialog seriously turns me off.

That said, I think that was the point of the end of the Shadow War, that neither side was right or wrong, and that the Younger Races should choose for themselves. And it seems like they ended up being far more mature "First Ones" (at least Humans and Minbari) for their relative First Ones than the Shadows and Vorlons.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Thanks to tomalak301's recent thread, I am now half way through my 3rd time through the entire series. I have come to a conclusion I haven't thought of before, The Shadows were actually right.

Of course they are. So were the Vorlons. Chaos is good: it leads to evolution. Order is good: it leads to peace. But peace without evolution is death, and evolution without peace is constant warfare. Vorlons and Shadows are extremists, leading their respective philosophies to the logical extremes. Both extremes are untenable, and wisdom, as usual is found in the middle.

 

[Kosh Naranek]

I felt they were both wrong. The two sides were fanatically married to their ideologies. They were willing to commit genocide to keep the other from gaining the upper hand.

 

[miraclefan]

I felt they were both wrong. The two sides were fanatically married to their ideologies. They were willing to commit genocide to keep the other from gaining the upper hand.

Sounds like the two political parties in the this country.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

That said, I think that was the point of the end of the Shadow War, that neither side was right or wrong, and that the Younger Races should choose for themselves.

Agreed on the second part, just not on the first.

I have a very simplistic view of life in general, let alone the preferred TV shows and films that I enjoy. I don't believe in ambiguity or gray areas. My worldview is very black and white, and I find that comforting. I believe there is always a 'right' and a 'wrong', a 'good' and an 'evil' side, to everything. I want to know who is good, and who is not, so I can know who to root for; any TV show or film that promotes otherwise, is not likely to be enjoyed by me.

As for B5, if I had to choose a side, it would probably be the Vorlons. I have no tolerance for chaos. Chaos is an enemy, a plague to be wiped out, because it leads only to death and destruction. Perhaps the ultimate goal should not be to *impose order*, I admit, but it should always be to *prevent DISorder*.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I have a very simplistic view of life in general, let alone the preferred TV shows and films that I enjoy. I don't believe in ambiguity or gray areas. My worldview is very black and white, and I find that comforting. I believe there is always a 'right' and a 'wrong', a 'good' and an 'evil' side, to everything. I want to know who is good, and who is not, so I can know who to root for; any TV show or film that promotes otherwise, is not likely to be enjoyed by me.

That's surely a respectable frame of mind, but I cannot help but find it supremely baffling. I only deal in shades of grey. To each its own, of course.

As for B5, if I had to choose a side, it would probably be the Vorlons. I have no tolerance for chaos. Chaos is an enemy, a plague to be wiped out, because it leads only to death and destruction. Perhaps the ultimate goal should not be to *impose order*, I admit, but it should always be to *prevent DISorder*.

You should not see my desktop at work, then.

 

[JoeD80]

I want to know who is good, and who is not, so I can know who to root for; any TV show or film that promotes otherwise, is not likely to be enjoyed by me.

What interests me is seeing characters change over time and seeing characters making compromises and rationalizations and having flaws. That to me is much more interesting than being spoon-fed who is supposed to be good and who is supposed to be not. It's the difference between having an actual *character* wth complex emotions rather than just following an archetype template of what one can and can't do. In Babylon 5 you see Londo slide from his mostly harmless state in the pilot down in to darkness over the first few seasons to where he is probably one of the more dangerous beings in the galaxy. Later he attempts redemption. Watching that progression has much more of a dramatic impact than if he had just been stuck at the gaming table for all five years mourning the loss of the Republic.

 

[Lindley]

I have a very simplistic view of life in general, let alone the preferred TV shows and films that I enjoy. I don't believe in ambiguity or gray areas. My worldview is very black and white, and I find that comforting. I believe there is always a 'right' and a 'wrong', a 'good' and an 'evil' side, to everything.

In a certain respect Babylon 5 does take this approach; I mean, Sheridan's forces are called the Army of Light, and their mission is to "draw a line against the darkness."

The catch is that who is on which side isn't entirely constant. Some people slide from one side to the other over time, and some people were never on the side you thought they were at first.

Other characters are very solidly on one side or the other and make a point of staying there. It's a mix.

As Delenn put it----"The war is never completely won. There are always new battles to be fought against the darkness. Only the names change."

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The Shadows were wrong because they were wimps. If they really believed in their point of view, they wouldn't have quailed at Sheridan's absurd lecture. They would have pointed out to the dimwit how much he owed them. Shit, the Vorlons could have done the same.

But let's face it, the cosmos is inherently chaotic. The Shadows were bringing coals to Newcastle.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What interests me is seeing characters change over time and seeing characters making compromises and rationalizations and having flaws. That to me is much more interesting than being spoon-fed who is supposed to be good and who is supposed to be not. It's the difference between having an actual *character* wth complex emotions rather than just following an archetype template of what one can and can't do.

Characterization is overrated, IMHO. I'm a huge Law & Order fan - and that show is character-proof. Just the way I like it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Shadows were wrong because they were wimps. If they really believed in their point of view, they wouldn't have quailed at Sheridan's absurd lecture. They would have pointed out to the dimwit how much he owed them. Shit, the Vorlons could have done the same.

But let's face it, the cosmos is inherently chaotic. The Shadows were bringing coals to Newcastle.

Sometimes as a parent, when your 15 year old child starts putting out cigarettes on her arm until you give her a car, you just have to get her the damn car before their body is nothing but a mass of polkadots.