The Romulan War: the biggest 'problem' in Trek canon?

[Timo]

Because this would indicate technical level superior to Earth. Greatly superior. The production of antimatter is, for example, process, theoretically known even in XX century, and with dilithium (which is natural element) you could make this process cost-effective rather quickly. But we haven't got even a clue, how to create artifical quantum singularity.

ITRW, yeah. But in Trek, manipulation of gravity is a technology discovered by the Pakleds' less clever relatives from planet Slooooow early on in their quest for space travel. Crunching matter into singularities might be a triviality discovered long before a practical way to manufacture antimatter.

Some of them have machineguns for anti-aircraft defense)

But not cast gunbarrels comparable to the naval cannon that is the main weapon of the battleship. Incidentally, gunbarrels might be a good analogy for warp coils in another way as well: created in a tedious process (it's even called casting in the TNG TM) that may result in duds and can't be hastened, forming a key bottleneck in construction.

What, antimatter? With all respect, the mass of antihydrogen is exactly the same as the mass of hydrogen. And dilithium crystals never were shown as particulary heavy.

Huh? I said the magical mass is in the warp coils. It's not in antimatter or dilithium.

The size of Earth disk at this moment is not that small.

It really is.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=491&pid=52030#top_display_media

That, an ICBM today can't do. Not even something like Saturn V.

Please. Look at the aerospike engine nozzles:

Which could not be adapted for NTR. They won't work in vacuum, and NTRs won't work in atmospheres.

Ok, let's assume that this is dust fission engine, deal?

That, or some sort of an ion engine fired up by a nuke, would certainly work better. But since there's artificial gravity aboard, we might just go the full nine yards and say this is a futuristic engine that does not require propellant (which seems to be missing from the design, and would be hard pressed to play a credible role in interstellar travel which Khan achieves).

For example, it make sence not to haul the propellant from Earth, but to load it in space, from orbital (or Lunar) propellant depot.

Great point. Although to defeat the rocket equation for interstellar travel, Khan would still need a bit of magic. (Which he is supposed to have in ample supply, so no problem there.)

...it could exactly reach 10% of lighspeed. Of course, this means that by 2263 she would be no farther than 20 lightyears from Solar System

One performance criterion we could use is the ship achieving time dilation sufficient for turning the about three centuries of flight time into just two centuries of cryosleep time. About 45% lightspeed would turn 270 years into 250 and thus technically qualify; it also gets Khan about 150 ly away from Earth, a distance indeed studied by Earth in the timeframe indicated (Archer's mission era) and then plausibly abandoned as required.

The extra performance could come from an AG boost to propellant exhaust velocity, or an AG reduction of propellant mass while in storage, or an AG increase of propellant mass while being ejected, or a combination of all three.

(Also, if the derelict was found according to Khan's superclever master plan, he might have had some fuel left for further domination games. If she overshot her target, whatever that was, then probably not. But a model allowing for even greater delta vee than 0.45c, hopefully twice that, might be useful.)

and her trajectory was probably well-known (on the other hands, World War III... Earth obviously have more important things to do than saving the data about trajectory of half-of-century old spaceraft with augments onboard).

There's the "fragmentary records" thing, yeah. Probably nothing like total anarchy, since we know of nothing else being lost either in WWIII or the Eugenics War(s); more like one or two interplanetary spaceships out of the supposed hundreds going unaccounted for back in the 1990s already. Either because of lost tracking data, or because there was too much reshuffling of ship identities in all sorts of scams and tactical feints?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Couple that with use of Remains for ground troops.

I wonder how that could work. How would the Romulans convince the Earthlings that the Remans were not Romulans, but the proxy troops they indeed were instead? By the Remans themselves saying so when (allowing themselves to be) captured?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dilandu]

Plus the fact the Romulans refused to surrender and therefore had no need for communication.

This also means that no video communication was ever decoded.

 

[Crazyewok]

This also means that no video communication was ever decoded.

Well Romans did seem to have far more advanced computers and with the Talshiar there counter intelligence would of outstripped starfleet.

 

[Dilandu]

That, an ICBM today can't do. Not even something like Saturn V.

Nah, only about 2000-3000 km over surface.

Great point. Although to defeat the rocket equation for interstellar travel, Khan would still need a bit of magic. (Which he is supposed to have in ample supply, so no problem there.)

Well, this depend of exaust velocity and specific impusle. Some fission drives could reach low relativistic velocity.

One performance criterion we could use is the ship achieving time dilation sufficient for turning the about three centuries of flight time into just two centuries of cryosleep time. About 45% lightspeed would turn 270 years into 250 and thus technically qualify; it also gets Khan about 150 ly away from Earth, a distance indeed studied by Earth in the timeframe indicated (Archer's mission era) and then plausibly abandoned as required.

I really doubt that primitive DY-100 could accelerate to 45%c. It would demant much more propellant than even twice of total mass, on the fission/fission powered engines.

Unless in was external fusion engine, powered by fission reactor (i.e. not self-sustaining reaction).

 

[Tenacity]

no video communication was ever decoded

Why would regular everyday Romulan communications require visual? Increasingly today most communications don't even involve voice.

 

[Dilandu]

Well Romans did seem to have far more advanced computers and with the Talshiar there counter intelligence would of outstripped starfleet.

Frankly, it would require quite a lot of efforts... But it is possible that a few transmissions that were decoded, were not revealed by Earth intelligence, because of confusing similarity between Vulcans and Romulans.

I wonder how that could work. How would the Romulans convince the Earthlings that the Remans were not Romulans, but the proxy troops they indeed were instead? By the Remans themselves saying so when (allowing themselves to be) captured?

Hm... What if Romulans set some sort of elaborate ruse? I.e. what if they exploited their obvious relations to vulcans so no one would really believe in it? I.e. Earth intelligence would decode video, and decide "oh, this romulans are again trying to let us think they are vulcans! Frankly, this ruse is lame!"

 

[Dilandu]

Why would regular everyday Romulan communications require visual? Increasingly today most communications don't even involve voice.

Of course not, but SOME must. Especially considering how often in Star Trek direct ship-to-ship video link is used.

 

[Timo]

Unless in was external fusion engine

...For all we know, there was a wholly external drive stage involved. Although it's a bit difficult to see such a stage as part and parcel of a back-and-forth interplanetary workhorse, and thus doubly difficult to see Khan acquiring one for his exceptional (if even intended!) interstellar sortie.

As for visuals, those are indeed not only part and parcel of all Trek communication, but also a staple of scifi overall, especially at the time of the writing of the episode (not that writer intent should actually matter one way or another). All we need to assume here is that there were no exchanges of visual communications between the two sides: hostile decoding of an opponent's internal communications could well be assumed to be impossible, lest it lead to humiliating strategic defeat such as that of Japan in anything it did after 1942. I mean, surely Romulus didn't lose hands down or else there oughtn't be this Neutral Zone - but more like a Secure Zone around each of the Earth garrisons in prominent Romulan cities.

Beyond the actual Romulan War, where the two sides would be in a rat race and highly probably on equal terms in coding and decoding, there could be divergence that ultimately allows Spock to crack the Romulan video signal with relative ease. Although here we must remember it's not actually a Romulan transmission: Spock is instead hacking into their internal surveillance cameras, and that feed might not be encrypted at all because it's not supposed to leave the ship in the first place.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dilandu]

Although here we must remember it's not actually a Romulan transmission: Spock is instead hacking into their internal surveillance cameras, and that feed might not be encrypted at all because it's not supposed to leave the ship in the first place.

This make no sence at all. Decoding the transmission is possible. But hacking the enemy onboard software? How on Earth could he do that, without any return feed? He send some sort of command: even if we assume that Romulan computers would register it at all, and not just ignore, how could Spock knew what exactly this command triggered in complete unknown operational system? It's a cloacked warship; all data transmissions are limited.

Just imagine the situation: you are trying to activate some program on the unknown computer with unknown sorfware, but you couldn't see the monitor. How could you be sure that your commands mean anything for software?

 

[TheSubCommander]

I don't think the Romulan War is a problem at all, but I don't mind retcons and rewrites. Does it really matter that a few lines from "Balance of Terror" were ignored by the people behind Enterprise? It's hardly a first in Star Trek (see links in my sig). I'll always put a compelling story ahead of perfect continuity - an example that comes to mind is X-Men: First Class, which very deliberately changed and ignored a few factoids from prior movies but in doing so told a far more compelling story than they might have otherwise.

Whether Enterprise's retcons resulted in better stories is debatable, but the principle is fine by me.

Agreed.

Story and Overall continuity is good. Being a slave to a couple lines, that get nit-picked 40-50 years later, not so much.

Most of the continuity issues Enterprise had I always chalked up to 2 things:
1. The chronologically later series took place at least 100 years later. If someone right now were asked about the Boer War, or even say the Napoleonic Wars, I am sure they would get a lot of facts wrong. Who is to say that most of the "facts" cited on screen were just minor errors on the part of the characters citing them.
2. There is the fact that the Temporal Cold War did change things. Its possible, at least.

 

[Dilandu]

There may be additional explanation about Romulans, using fusion-powered starships in 22 century. The neutrinos.

As we knew, even in 22 century, Romulans paid a lot of attention to camouflage and cloaking. Well, there would be no reason to cloak, if the enemy could detect your neutrino plume, which matter/antimatter reaction produced in quite large numbers!

Also, heat. Any cloaked starship must reduce the heat emission as much as possible (or it would eventually melt under its own cloak). So, the high-powered matter/antimatter reactors may actually NOT be a perfect solution for the fleet, that didn't knew that there is no stealth in space put a lot of efforts toward stealth in space.

 

[Timo]

This make no sence at all. Decoding the transmission is possible. But hacking the enemy onboard software? How on Earth could he do that, without any return feed?

Spock claims he's getting a visual in connection with the Romulan coded transmission, by "locking on" to it. The visual he gets doesn't appear to be part of that transmission - it's just random imagery of Romulans turning their backs on the camera. But the signal itself may have allowed Spock to launch a cyberattack, by providing a target (spatial coordinates and frequency) and possibly an opening (the coded signal might be expecting a return signal, perhaps some sort of a checksum transmission from HQ).

The other option, or rather the potentially underlying premise, is that Spock indeed is eminently qualified to decode Romulan transmissions, for the exact reason Stiles stipulates... Not that he'd be a Romulan spy outright, but Vulcans might be in close contact with Romulans and well aware of their codes and systems and their weaknesses. The arrogant Decius in turn might assume a stupid Starfleet crew would not be capable of Vulcan feats of decoding.

Just imagine the situation: you are trying to activate some program on the unknown computer with unknown sorfware, but you couldn't see the monitor. How could you be sure that your commands mean anything for software?

Eliminate just one of those "unknowns" above, and you may have a fighting chance already...

Who is to say that most of the "facts" cited on screen were just minor errors on the part of the characters citing them.

Stiles would probably obsess about the facts. Yet Kirk might be utterly ignorant of the whole conflict, which is why he asks Spock to give the mission announcement. And Spock might be holding back a few things and instead repeating certain well-established falsehoods without "really" lying himself.

But the problematic things are not details. They are major issues: are the Romulans known or not? Were they capable of invisibility back in the old war or not?

Well, there would be no reason to cloak, if the enemy could detect your neutrino plume, which matter/antimatter reaction produced in quite large numbers!

Klingon cloaks still manage this somehow (what they leak at inopportune moments is neutrons). But I have no doubt that the Romulans would go for some sort of a stealth power system even if this meant giving up performance. Essentially, they'd be building Walther boats (AQS powerplant) when their technology level wouldn't allow them to build nuclear submarines (antimatter powerplant), and they'd stick with the inferior drive and refine it to perfection even when the rest of the universe went forward.

Alternately, what the Romulans have is a Fischer-Tropsch fuel system (AQS) because they don't have oil supplies (dilithium), and that's the thing they have refined to perfection contrary to galactic standard.

Either way, it's technology typical for a pariah state cut off from the resources of the greater community...

Any cloaked starship must reduce the heat emission as much as possible (or it would eventually melt under its own cloak).

We shouldn't be selling the cloaks short. The mere ability to handle visual emissions/reflections already establishes broad powers, which may well automatically defeat all real-world worries such as heat management. I mean, it's not as if heat management would be a problem to start with, as fantastical powers are being utilized at all times by the average starship which nevertheless doesn't melt and instead rapidly grows cold if losing power.

And it's not as if a starship would have an obligation to follow the laws of thermodynamics. Her options for making stuff disappear outright and breaking all symmetry rules include shunting stuff to "subspace" or "phase space". More real-worldish trickery would involve sending all heat away in a directional beam (perhaps that's what impulse engine "nozzles" really are for, and the only reason why they are pointed roughly but typically not directly aft, away from the opponent?) or packing it in dewars for later release at a distance from the mothership. Finally, there's the fact that our real-world worries would be limited to lightspeed, and starships would not: a heat signature might be a tactical advantage rather than a liability, confusing the enemy as to where the ship is now.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dilandu]

Spock claims he's getting a visual in connection with the Romulan coded transmission, by "locking on" to it.

I.e. for some reason the survelliance data was included into the transmission. Maybe some glitch onboard the Romulan ship.

Eliminate just one of those "unknowns" above, and you may have a fighting chance already...

Please close your browser, turn off the monitor and then try to put some answer on this forum with the monitor still of)

This would be the pretty good example of how many chances you have.

And we aren't even talking about the Romulan computer safeguards, which would detect unathorised attempt to access system from external source. Basically it would be ALERT! ALERT! ALERT! everywhere onboard the ship.

Klingon cloaks still manage this somehow (what they leak at inopportune moments is neutrons).

Yes, but I was talking about Romulan War of 2100s - where such solution may not exist yet, and Romulans were forced to use neutrino-free cycles.

But I have no doubt that the Romulans would go for some sort of a stealth power system even if this meant giving up performance. Essentially, they'd be building Walther boats (AQS powerplant) when their technology level wouldn't allow them to build nuclear submarines (antimatter powerplant), and they'd stick with the inferior drive and refine it to perfection even when the rest of the universe went forward.

Agree with that.

We shouldn't be selling the cloaks short. The mere ability to handle visual emissions/reflections already establishes broad powers, which may well automatically defeat all real-world worries such as heat management. I mean, it's not as if heat management would be a problem to start with, as fantastical powers are being utilized at all times by the average starship which nevertheless doesn't melt and instead rapidly grows cold if losing power.

Well, the problem is, that the average starship could at least use the heat radiation (probably the whole outside skin act as one giant radiator) to get rid of excessive heat. Of course, there is sertain level of handiwavium, but at least this is more or less possible.

The romulans, on the other hands, must HIDE their heat signature. I.e. they must not let ANY heat get away. So, they probably used some sort of handiwavium heat sink, built from some exotic material to control heat emission.

Finally, there's the fact that our real-world worries would be limited to lightspeed, and starships would not: a heat signature might be a tactical advantage rather than a liability, confusing the enemy as to where the ship is now.

This is an argument, yes, but only on warp speed (i.e. it would not work on impulse at all)

Also, there are faster-than-light scanners in Star Trek (probably some sort of localized warp is used to deliver external radiation faster than light.

P.S. Hm, I wonder... could we somehow use space warping as a mean to transport our heat emission on significant distance out of the ship?

 

[Oso Blanco]

What they should of done is got Nimoy to say aload of new dialog when they were remastering the BOT episode...

Didn't they mess up TOS enough already?