• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

The Kira Question (spoiler for Typhon Pact?)

Deranged Nasat

Vice Admiral
Admiral
I'm not sure this really needed a new thread, but I thought, why not? I haven't started one for a while and I have something to talk about.

Reading through the review thread for "Zero Sum Game", there are several comments on the question of Kira's current status. I suppose we'll learn more very soon when "Rough Beasts of Empire" arrives, but until then we're all pondering. I haven't yet gotten my hands on "Zero Sum Game" so I'm not sure exactly what is or isn't stated, though obviously the conversation in the review thread gives me a pretty good idea how it's played. So while we're waiting for more clues...

One of the ideas that comes up frequently is that Kira might have entered the religious hierarchy. Star Trek Online of course took that path with (ahem) Kai Kira, but then the backstory for an online game with a far more generalized audience than Trek novels can get away with that. But what do we all think of the possibility that Kira might join the hierarchy of Bajor's dominant religion? As a prylar or vedek (or a ranjen, which might be more appropriate given that the title apparently denotes a monk with specific spiritual duties or a mission, while prylars are more generically spiritual advisers)? I must say, the idea of Kira becoming a religious official never quite gels for me. First, the idea of her own spiritual path taking her there - the idea of taking such a position for her own fulfillment- seems unlikely. Her faith is far too pure and internalized; having her in the robes would seem like she's wearing a costume. It would seem hollow, like she's announcing something that doesn't need to be announced. Kira doesn't need to demonstrate her religion and she isn't a vessel for it, she simply has it. In a highly personal, non-demonstrative way (not saying she doesn't actively engage in the religion's practices - of course she does - but that none of that is truly the point of this aspect of her character). Plus, I feel the whole Attainder arc took her character to a place where acknowledging her faith became fully a reaffirment of her sense of self, rather than of religion as an expression of cultural solidarity. Bajor and its practices/orders might well be important, but her faith has proven it can sustain her fine without that. After spending so long fighting for Bajor, she learned to disentangle her sense of personal spirituality from her sense of love for home. Her faith is about her, not Bajor (even if she is also part of that world). In a sense, she learned to let Bajor go without turning her back on it, a very subtle and fulfilling outcome (which also pleasingly mirrors the Cardassian characters' development, e.g. Garak. And this is DS9: Bajor and Cardassia should be reflecting on each other). Having Kira put on vedek's robes seems to undermine that development, as though she once again equates the Bajoran culture with her self-identity, rather than holding the two ideals in balance.

Secondly, the idea that she took to an official role to teach others also seems uncomfortable. I'm sure Kira could offer much wisdom on faith, but from a personal perspective not a dogmatic one. Not that I'm saying a religious official needs to be overly dogmatic, but it's also at least somewhat inescapable, even if it's only in how the student relates to or views them. Would they truly see Kira the spiritual being, or instead see the robe and the preconceived structure it signifies? For Kira to be a vedek or prylar would seem to undermine any teaching she might engage in, because she found her own path, one which in these novels even put her at odds with the religious establishment. Any teaching talent she possesses would, it seems to me, transcend that establishment - like the case with Opaka, now she's returned. Opaka's understanding of her faith has transcended the hierarchy- she's not Kai Opaka now, she's simple Opaka Sulan. If Kira were to become a spiritual teacher, I imagine she'd be more like that.

So while I could see her being a teacher or a guide for others of the faithful, she definitely doesn't work for me a vedek. Of course, I have faith the writers could make it work if they wanted, but as it stands now, the idea is a little hard for me to swallow.

So, anyone else have any thoughts on this? :)
 
Re: The Kira Question

Firstly, have you read Zero Sum Game or the section that this refers to as I believe I was the first person to comment on Kira's current assignment/state within the Prime Trekverse novels and given the way it was written, the context of it is key. To me, the way I read the context was that she's either an Admiral or even back with the Bajorian Militia and a high ranking Officer there. I do not believe for one single moment has she joined Bajors religious sects.
 
Re: The Kira Question

To take a role in a religious system is hardly to sell out and become a puppet in a machine, though we all know of hypocrites who have done such. But those of pure heart purify the role in the way that they fulfill it. If Kira were to go the vocational religious route, I wouldn't see it as her wearing a ridiculous costume, but her contributing to her world in a way that's desperately needed.

For what it's worth.
 
Re: The Kira Question

me, the way I read the context was that she's either an Admiral or even back with the Bajorian Militia and a high ranking Officer there.

Kira didn't leave the Bajoran Militia for Starfleet; the Militia was folded into Starfleet, its ranks and positions subsumed by Starfleet ones. So I don't think there is a Militia per se for her to return to.

I don't see Kira becoming either an admiral or a highly placed religious official. She's too rebellious, too independent, too impolitic. She'd say and do too many things over her career that would rub people in authority the wrong way, and that rarely gets rewarded with promotion to the inner ranks of power.
 
Re: The Kira Question

Firstly, have you read Zero Sum Game or the section that this refers to as I believe I was the first person to comment on Kira's current assignment/state within the Prime Trekverse novels and given the way it was written, the context of it is key. To me, the way I read the context was that she's either an Admiral or even back with the Bajorian Militia and a high ranking Officer there. I do not believe for one single moment has she joined Bajors religious sects.

I'm not saying that "Zero Sum Game" suggested that outcome at all, only that the possibility keeps being raised (including several times in the ZSG review thread itself), and I got the impression from the thread that, as expected, ZSG merely confirms she isn't a captain or in command of DS9 anymore. What she is doing, it doesn't tell us. So people speculate, and one thing that keeps coming up is the possibility that she returned to Bajor to become a religious official or teacher. So I wanted to see what we all think of this hypothetical direction for the character. :)

To take a role in a religious system is hardly to sell out and become a puppet in a machine, though we all know of hypocrites who have done such. But those of pure heart purify the role in the way that they fulfill it. If Kira were to go the vocational religious route, I wouldn't see it as her wearing a ridiculous costume, but her contributing to her world in a way that's desperately needed.

For what it's worth.

Oh, I'm not trying to downplay or attack the Bajoran religious hierarchy. I meant that I felt Kira's personal spiritual journey has taken her away from them (mirroring them, perhaps, respecting them and the work they do but not being tied to them) and to join them would reverse or undermine that character development. I feel that she offers a different perspective than can be given from within the establishment, even if only because the student might see "a minister", not Kira. It's like the Eav'oq/Bajora/Ascendant idea- there's more than one approach. So too with the establishment and Kira's personal outlook. Having Kira join the vedeks seems to me like having the Eav'oq all convert to the Bajora.
 
Re: The Kira Question

me, the way I read the context was that she's either an Admiral or even back with the Bajorian Militia and a high ranking Officer there.

Kira didn't leave the Bajoran Militia for Starfleet; the Militia was folded into Starfleet, its ranks and positions subsumed by Starfleet ones. So I don't think there is a Militia per se for her to return to.

I was under the impression that both happened, those like Ro or Kira and that chap on Titan joined Starfleet but others stayed in the Bajorian Militia as a form of homeworld defence force etc.
 
Re: The Kira Question

So, anyone else have any thoughts on this? :)

I think you have a very strange view of religious clergy.

Why? I didn't really comment on the Bajoran clergy itself. I'm not talking about some hypothetical faithful Bajoran Joe Blogys who seeks to express her faith by becoming a prylar/vedek, explore her own spirituality through the existing church, or offer teachings through the existing cultural structures. I was just saying why Kira in that situation doesn't work for me. :)

I get the feeling some of you think I'm attacking the Bajoran church. Is this because I called them dogmatic? Of course they're dogmatic. It's a church; it's dogmatic by definition. It isn't a dirty word, it just means "pertaining to dogma", no matter what connotations have become attached to it. :)

To clarify: I'm not saying the robes of a vedek are usually, or in and of themselves, "just a costume" or meaningless - for the vedeks and much of the faithful, of course they are deeply meaningful as symbols of commitment to the faith. But in the specific context of Kira, who doesn't work well within a system and who, particularly with the Attainder arc, has affirmed her faith on a personal level disattached from the official church,- for her to wear them would seem to me like she's just putting on a costume. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
 
Last edited:
Re: The Kira Question

me, the way I read the context was that she's either an Admiral or even back with the Bajorian Militia and a high ranking Officer there.

Kira didn't leave the Bajoran Militia for Starfleet; the Militia was folded into Starfleet, its ranks and positions subsumed by Starfleet ones. So I don't think there is a Militia per se for her to return to.


Is the absorption of the Militia so total in Zero Sum Game? In Worlds of DS9: Trill and Bajor, Ro Laren suggested to Vaughn that they establish a liason with the militia's remnant, a remnant primarily responsible for local security.
 
Re: The Kira Question

Firstly, have you read Zero Sum Game or the section that this refers to as I believe I was the first person to comment on Kira's current assignment/state within the Prime Trekverse novels and given the way it was written, the context of it is key. To me, the way I read the context was that she's either an Admiral or even back with the Bajorian Militia and a high ranking Officer there. I do not believe for one single moment has she joined Bajors religious sects.

I'm not saying that "Zero Sum Game" suggested that outcome at all, only that the possibility keeps being raised (including several times in the ZSG review thread itself), and I got the impression from the thread that, as expected, ZSG merely confirms she isn't a captain or in command of DS9 anymore. What she is doing, it doesn't tell us. So people speculate, and one thing that keeps coming up is the possibility that she returned to Bajor to become a religious official or teacher. So I wanted to see what we all think of this hypothetical direction for the character. :)

I think I know where you're coming from, and to be honest there is very little in the text that gives any clues, but have you read the book? To quote the book here on page 37:

David Mack wrote in "Zero Sum Game" said:
Jack added, "that's from your own Major Kira-"
Captain Kira," Patrick said, correcting him.
"Actually," Lauren said, "it's-"
"Enough" Bashir snapped................

Personally I infer from that very brief comment that Kira is still in a military, either Starfleet or Bajors, I'm not sure which, but I wouldn't think she is a Vedek or a Kia. One thing for sure is she isn't on DS9 and hasn't been since at least a few months before the Borg invasion.

oh and the ................ is because I didn't think the rest of the paragraph was relevant to any of this.
 
Since David Mack and presumably the editors and others with some idea of what is going to happen next are going to the trouble to tease this, I suppose the likely answer is "none of the obvious choices."

Since I don't really see Kira as an Admiral or member of the clergy, I'm hoping there's a surprise in store. However, it's possible that Admiral or even Kai could potentially work, especially as a stepping stone for a new direction later on. It would depend on how it is handled.

As I recall, the end of The Soul Key seems to identify Kira as the Hand of the Prophets, so I guess there is also the possibility that Kira's new situation will have something to do with the fallout from the Ascendant storyline that would have taken place between The Soul Key and Destiny.
 
I happen to agree with you, Deranged Nasat, for pretty much all the reasons you listed. I also think that Kira is a woman of action and wouldn't feel comfortable taking a position that would pull her away from the lines, after her years in the resistance and the militia (though I grant that something could have happened to make her want to back away from it in the intervening five years, but I don't see it lasting long enough to take her to becoming Kai). Kira is a leader, but she's far more of a battlefield leader than a religious leader. I've never seen her as being comfortable in waging war of words when she could get things accomplished with the same results by more physical matters. She's gotten used to it by virtue of being the commanding officer of DS9 and having to deal in politics, but she wouldn't be willing to work political angles the way that being the kai would be - the kai is a political figure as much as they are a religious one.
 
Re: The Kira Question

Personally I infer from that very brief comment that Kira is still in a military, either Starfleet or Bajors, I'm not sure which, but I wouldn't think she is a Vedek or a Kia. One thing for sure is she isn't on DS9 and hasn't been since at least a few months before the Borg invasion.

oh and the ................ is because I didn't think the rest of the paragraph was relevant to any of this.

Commodore, possibly commanding a fleet based at DS9 or someplace reasonably close? I can't imagine a plausible storyline that'd take her far away from Bajor, but I'd buy a sector-level command based on DS9 or Starbase 375. I'd also buy Kai, but that's about as likely as a sequel to Articles of the Federation where Sisko runs against Bacco.
 
Re: The Kira Question

What do think of the possibility of her taking some kind of position in the Bajoran government?
 
Personally I infer from that very brief comment that Kira is still in a military, either Starfleet or Bajors, I'm not sure which, but I wouldn't think she is a Vedek or a Kia. One thing for sure is she isn't on DS9 and hasn't been since at least a few months before the Borg invasion.

oh and the ................ is because I didn't think the rest of the paragraph was relevant to any of this.

Commodore, possibly commanding a fleet based at DS9 or someplace reasonably close? I can't imagine a plausible storyline that'd take her far away from Bajor, but I'd buy a sector-level command based on DS9 or Starbase 375. I'd also buy Kai, but that's about as likely as a sequel to Articles of the Federation where Sisko runs against Bacco.

What do think of the possibility of her taking some kind of position in the Bajoran government?


Given her long service as a liason officer and experience in Starfleet, I wouldn't be surprised to see her in a position commanding Starfleet operations around Bajor.
 
The Dark Crystal! Love that one. Pre-cgi seems more real sometimes.

In the mid-90's at a live show Dave Matthews dedicated a song to Kira. (He actually did, check you their Live Trax Volume 5, "Lover Lay Down").
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top