Unless it was a self-consistent time travel story, that they were ALWAYS going to go back--that there aren't any "changes" to the time stream...which is unlike Back to the Future, which says you CAN change the time stream.
the first "Terminator" makes NO sence
- Thread starter Flying Spaghetti Monster
- Start date
Unless it was a self-consistent time travel story, that they were ALWAYS going to go back--that there aren't any "changes" to the time stream...which is unlike Back to the Future, which says you CAN change the time stream.
Yes, but if you view T1 as a closed loop it doesn't matter. The terminator had failed before it even went back. That failure is the only reason Connor exists in the first place (and Skynet's need to destroy him).
Well, that's the point of a predestination paradox - it isn't triggered by an outside source, it is its OWN trigger. Again, though, this only applies to the first film, obviously.
To be honest, the whole Terminator series doesn't make sence at all, there's a very very thin line of canon and contunity between them all.
Basically my understanding of the first film is this.
The humans are at war with the machines, and they are losing. The machines decide to send one of them back in time to kill John Connors mother before she can give birth to him, and then humans send back Michael Biehn to protect her (so far so good).
Biehn sleeps with Linda and we end up with John, and of course Linda eventually kills the Governor and all is well. In the second film however, we find out that the chip from the Governor's head in first film was found by a company called Cyberdyne Systems who eventually create Skynet in the first place.
So... the only reason Connor or the machines exist is because Arnie went back in time, and the only reason he went back in time is because the machines and John Connor exist... not to mention the last part of the second film, where John Connor tries to stop the war, meaning Connor is trying to stop his own existence, by eliminating the war would mean he would not have sent his dad back in time to sleep with Linda. And if he does prevent his own existence, he won't be needing to prevent the war and... ugh...
Nobody really thought of this properally when making it.
Of course people ask, "why can't Skynet just send back more machines?" I've wondered that myself. There's no rule on the take-your-clothes-off-before-entering-time-machine that says you can only send three machines back now is there? Fuck it, go back to a 6 year old Sarah, wait in a car outside of the house, and then when she comes out, nuke the shit in to her. Job done.
Oh, not to mention the bullshit that is in T3, mini-nuke in the chest? C'mon man. Why didn't the Terminator just do that in the first film? He obviously doesn't need it. Just walk up to the bitch, spout off a Hasta la Vista, baby line, and nuke the shit in to her!!! It's not like the machines care about civilians around her, or did they say to Arnie before he went, "just don't kill any other humans, more work for us, you digg dog?".
ugggh
Basically my understanding of the first film is this.
The humans are at war with the machines, and they are losing. The machines decide to send one of them back in time to kill John Connors mother before she can give birth to him, and then humans send back Michael Biehn to protect her (so far so good).
Biehn sleeps with Linda and we end up with John, and of course Linda eventually kills the Governor and all is well. In the second film however, we find out that the chip from the Governor's head in first film was found by a company called Cyberdyne Systems who eventually create Skynet in the first place.
So... the only reason Connor or the machines exist is because Arnie went back in time, and the only reason he went back in time is because the machines and John Connor exist... not to mention the last part of the second film, where John Connor tries to stop the war, meaning Connor is trying to stop his own existence, by eliminating the war would mean he would not have sent his dad back in time to sleep with Linda. And if he does prevent his own existence, he won't be needing to prevent the war and... ugh...
Nobody really thought of this properally when making it.
Of course people ask, "why can't Skynet just send back more machines?" I've wondered that myself. There's no rule on the take-your-clothes-off-before-entering-time-machine that says you can only send three machines back now is there? Fuck it, go back to a 6 year old Sarah, wait in a car outside of the house, and then when she comes out, nuke the shit in to her. Job done.
Oh, not to mention the bullshit that is in T3, mini-nuke in the chest? C'mon man. Why didn't the Terminator just do that in the first film? He obviously doesn't need it. Just walk up to the bitch, spout off a Hasta la Vista, baby line, and nuke the shit in to her!!! It's not like the machines care about civilians around her, or did they say to Arnie before he went, "just don't kill any other humans, more work for us, you digg dog?".
ugggh
This is a great movie - the sequels, not so much.
The novelization of the first movie ends with the chip being discovered by employees of Cyberdyne. So, the second movie picks up from the intent of the first.
As for the timeline changing, the best argument for why Reese could go back is the one made before. In order for Skynet to exist and build the time machine in the first place, the T-800 had to be destroyed in a location (Cyberdyne itself?) where the chip could be discovered and exploited. Had the T-800 not failed, Skynet could not have existed. It wasn't that Reese was protected from any changes, there were no timeline changes.
The problem comes with the fact that as opposed to this "classic" theory of time travel (the time traveller can't change the past because that would have prevented him from going back and changing the past to begin with), the rest of the franchise adopts the alternate timeline theory where the future can be changed. The solution to that dilemma isn't as elegant as the first movie (you can change the past and future but the T-800 was just not successful in doing so).
So why does the Terminator travel back in time?
An interesting question. If you want to argue that Kyle can follow Arnie back because of the Branching Timeline Theory, there's no reason to travel back at all, because changing the past won't fix YOUR timeline, but just create another. From the POV of the original timeline, nothing happens. Might as well just vaporize the T-800 and Kyle, same result. With no communication with the other timeline, can't notice a change.
If you assume you CAN directly change the timeline, Kyle can't follow anyone back, as change would happen immediately. Can try to argue the "protected area" angle, but with all these different attempts, what are the odds that KEEPS happening, everyone in one room?
Really need to start by assuming there is an ORIGINAL timeline out there, where Skynet was built naturally, without future help, and John's dad isn't from the future. From there, Skynet can have two purposes: Try to kill the original John Connor (not Kyle's kid), and/or try to create Skynet EARLIER than it is created normally, hoping that starting earlier might prevent the resistance from winning the war.
It kinda works, as THAT John Connor never exists, but unfortunately a NEW John Connor does exist, and he's now better trained than he was before. They do manage to get Skynet a head start, though.
Skynet can have the same reasoning in the second itteration, but it's now a closed loop where that has already happened.
Still need an original version that doesn't involve time travel until the future, though, as there has to be a natural cause for the first time through the loop. Without a normal way to ENTER the loop, you can't have one...
Why?
I think you're overlooking a very simple fact: namely, that by the time the T-800 and Kyle Reese travel back in time (in 2029), the events depicted in The Terminator have already happened (in 1984).
That is to say: in 1984, the T-800 and Kyle Reese appeared, one after another, and did what they did.
Then, forty-five years passed.
And then, in 2029, the T-800 and Kyle Reese went back in time, one after another.
Ironically, the best and easiest way for Skynet to change the past and accomplish its goals in this situation would have been to not send the T-800 back in time. Had Kyle Reese not pursued the T-800 back to 1984, he would never have met Sarah Connor, and would never have become John's father.
Obviously, Skynet must not have known that its attempt to change the past had already failed.
Indeed, the first movie raises an interesting question: is it, in fact, possible to change the past?
By the time you travel back in time and attempt to change things, you will already have succeeded, or failed. But had you succeeded in changing the past, you would never have travelled back in time to change the past. Therefore, you must have failed, and will fail.
Similarly: by the time Skynet sent the T-800 back in time to kill Sarah Connor, the T-800 would have already succeeded or failed in its mission. But had the T-800 succeeded, Skynet would never have sent it back in time: with no John Connor to lead the resistance, there would have been no call to kill his mother. Therefore, the T-800 must have failed, and would fail.
The only way out of this situation, I think, is to somehow know that it's your intervention that caused history to unfold as it did. But that raises another question: could you then, in that situation, choose not to travel back in time, and change the past?
Didn't the film establish that nothing living can pass through this "time tunnel", yet Skynet does so three times and the humans twice (IIRC) by the third film. If they can't get that right, don't worry about the time paradoxes.
Cool! I'd never heard of Novikov or his self-consistency principle before. Sounds like he thinks much along the same lines as I described in my post.
Has to be covered in living flesh.. but then how does the t1000 come through?
(In a terminator comic, the terminators stick some guys in a human body and then pull them out when they arrive..)
All I've got to say is the time travel theories I've come across in sci-fi seem like complete rubbish to me.
As far as I can understand, this movie follows the Predestination Paradox.
Quoting from wiki
Unless my understanding is completely off, this is saying that history will remain unchanged despite time travel because all major events will always carry out the same. But then what constitutes as a major event? The laws of physics don't discriminate, a particle of air moving differently is just as meaningful as a political figure getting assassinated or something. And so, a person's existence in the past HAS to alter history in some way, because they are causing all sorts of "minor" changes with their mere presence.
As far as I can understand, this movie follows the Predestination Paradox.
Quoting from wiki
Unless my understanding is completely off, this is saying that history will remain unchanged despite time travel because all major events will always carry out the same. But then what constitutes as a major event? The laws of physics don't discriminate, a particle of air moving differently is just as meaningful as a political figure getting assassinated or something. And so, a person's existence in the past HAS to alter history in some way, because they are causing all sorts of "minor" changes with their mere presence.
RobertScorpio
Pariah
Makes for bad movies, but instead of sending new terminators after older and older john connors, why not just send an additional one to the same time point as the previous attempt?
If ONE terminator failed (and just barely), why not send a 2nd one to the same point, and let TWO try it (and so on)? Again, they're stuck with trying to make movies instead of logically consistent storylines, but not like they have to wait to try again...
If ONE terminator failed (and just barely), why not send a 2nd one to the same point, and let TWO try it (and so on)? Again, they're stuck with trying to make movies instead of logically consistent storylines, but not like they have to wait to try again...
Similar threads
