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The expendability of Starships in the 24th century

Lance

Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
There's a big difference in the way Kirk and Picard react to the destruction of their respective ships.

With Kirk it was like the entire world had changed. "My, God, Bones, whathaveIdone?". In one brief moment, the legendary James T. Kirk questions his actions (not for the first time, but it's clear he treats it like a big deal). And to be sure, this could be because he knows there will be consequences: an official hearing into his conduct, if/when he eventually makes it back to Earth.

With Picard, it's a completely different story. He comes back from his jaunt on a bridge with Soran to find that Riker's totalled his ship while he's been away. And what's his reaction? He just kind of goes "Meh, they'll just build another one".

I mean, sure, Enterprises were ten-a-penny by the time Picard and his crew came along, whereas Kirk was blowing up the original. But still, the difference in attitude between them astounds me.

Especially given Picard himself had already lost Stargazer, and as we know a big deal was made of that. Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that he faced an enquiry into his actions of that day, but was ultimately cleared of blame? I suppose Riker would have needed to face an enquiry too after allowing one of Starfleet's most advanced ships to be shot down by a creaky old Klingon rust-bucket.

(Of course, the real-world explanation for the general lack of sadness over the Enterprise-D's destruction was that the writer's didn't care, they'd already decided to replace the ship in the next movie anyway, so the characters were effectively just expressing the same blaise attitude as the production crew themselves.)

It does make me wonder about explanations in universe, though. Picard just assumes a new ship will come along, and the 1701-E was indeed apparently commissioned not so very long after it's predecessor was shot down.

It might have been that an already-under-construction Sovereign was simply rechristened Enterprise when news got back that 1701-D had become a flaming mass over Veridian III.

Or maybe.... just maybe.... 1701-E was built from scratch, but techniques have improved to the point where starships can simply be constructed very quickly by TNG's time? So, for example, the fleet is actually fairly expendable, hence Picard and Riker's reactions that the death of the Enterprise is no big deal really.

Maybe starship construction in the 24th century is as simple as going down the local IKEA, getting a flat-pack for the next starship class, taking it home, and following the instructions to attached Tab A to Slot B? :p

Of course, this does jar a bit with Wolf 359 and the apparent (implied) problems Starfleet had getting fully operational again after the Borg incursion.
 
It does make me wonder about explanations in universe, though. Picard just assumes a new ship will come along, and the 1701-E was indeed apparently commissioned not so very long after it's predecessor was shot down.

It might have been that an already-under-construction Sovereign was simply rechristened Enterprise when news got back that 1701-D had become a flaming mass over Veridian III.
That's the way I've always looked at it. There was already a new Sovereign-class ship in the final stages of construction at the time and that ship was simply renamed Enterprise, NCC-1701-E, and given to Picard upon completion about a year later (in First Contact, LaForge said that the Enterprise-E had been in service for only a year and presumably two years had elapsed between that movie and Generations).
 
We don't know what Picard reaction was when he first heard about it, when he first saw the wreakage.

Kirk stood there and watched the Enterprise burn.

:)
 
He'd been steeling himself for the event ever since Troi became a bridge officer, so it wasn't nearly as much of a shock. :p
 
I always pictured an exchange like this,

"I leave for a few hours and you destroy my whole ship?!"

"Well.... at least I didn't get Kirk killed!"

"Well.... let's get to work making this look less bad in the log entry..."

That said, I think the difference is simply the size and resources of the Federation. Losing a ship was a big deal in TOS day because there were so few to begin with. In the TNG day there's always another ship and/or starbase in hailing range and presumably more facilities building ships and more worlds of people to man them. So while tragic, it's not quite the tragedy. Heck most of the crew survived the E-D's destruction for example.
 
I think it had more to do with the emotional investment each captain had in his ship. The Enterprise was Kirks first ship, pretty much his only ship,the D on the other hand was not Picard's first command, that was the stargazer. WE know that Picard acted more like Kirk over the lose of the stargazer, but not the D.

Picard was also one of the most distinguished captains and diplomats in starfleet and its not like he could not back up the lose with evidence.
 
Picard doesn't seem phased no matter how many ships he himself totals or by some action/inaction allows them to be destroyed. His hesitation in the Battle of Sector 001 allowed half a dozen to be blown away before he ordered them to formation.

Even ramming the E-E into the Scimitar, allowing no time for people to flee, wrecking his ship and killing more people. Guy is a serious danger to anyone around him.
 
Worf was very torn up regarding the destruction of Enterprise D and nearly resigned from Starfleet. So maybe Picard was uncaring, but that's not necessarily how the rest of the crew felt.

DS9 "The Way of the Warrior"
 
Kirk CAUSED the destruction of the Enterprise. Further, destruction was after he stole the Enterprise to pursue a personal, non-sanctioned mission. Additionally, Kirk had just lost a son that he had barely met.

In contrast, Picard's Enterprise was lost by enemy action as a direct result of protecting and preserving the Federation; or, at least, an inhabited planet.

So, the emotional situation was not the same. Kirk may not have had such an emotional moment had he lost the Enterprise in combat.
 
I think this is just fan over-analyzation.

Kirk: Set the self-destruct and went through with it. It was his decision and his inability to dream up an alternative that caused the destruction.

Picard: The ship was attacked by the enemy and destroyed. Nobody was at fault and [as far as Im aware] the entire crew compliment survives.

Picard isn't reacting in some disinterested, lazy way. He just realizes nothing could be done, yes its sad, but nobody died and we can all move on....its 'just' a ship.
 
With Picard, it's a completely different story. He comes back from his jaunt on a bridge with Soran to find that Riker's totalled his ship while he's been away. And what's his reaction? He just kind of goes "Meh, they'll just build another one".

I hadn't really thought of it in a long time, but as a movie-goer I was actually kind of put off by that. I guess that ship meant a lot more to me than it did to Picard. :sigh:

Kirk's ship going down meant something. A childhood icon going down in flames, and Shatner's wonderful warble in his voice with the "What have I done?" bit was very impactful.

I just got the impression that the creators of Generations just wanted to get rid of the ship.
 
IIRC the writers were under orders to get rid of the ship.

That said, the method was more than a bit hackneyed IMO, and I'd have to dispute the claim that nobody was at fault under the circumstances. Hell, the technology that essentially led to the ship's destruction had already been used against Our Heroes in the past.
 
This thread looks a little like those "Kirk vs. Picard" debates from when the Internet was new. I LOVED those! specially the lists "100 reasons why Kirk is better that Picard", "Picard is better than Kirk", "Data is better than Spock" and so on.

Who wouldnt love "Spock's dad can beat up Data's dad", for example?
 
Worf was very torn up regarding the destruction of Enterprise D and nearly resigned from Starfleet. So maybe Picard was uncaring, but that's not necessarily how the rest of the crew felt.

DS9 "The Way of the Warrior"

Good point. I think Riker showed slightly more emotion than Picard when he said that he always thought he'd have a shot at the big chair (that is, whatever mourning that super-smooth confident grinning Riker can muster).

Anyway, while Picard's reaction to the loss of the E-D may seem like justifiable casualness, I thought his reaction to the possible loss of the E-E was also telling. Sure, all hope seemed lost and that the ship would certainly fall to the Borg if she wasn't destroyed, but Picard seemed a little too ho-hum about losing the E-E and then Starfleet building an E-F, as if he takes the unlimited supply of ships for granted.
 
Anyway, while Picard's reaction to the loss of the E-D may seem like justifiable casualness, I thought his reaction to the possible loss of the E-E was also telling. Sure, all hope seemed lost and that the ship would certainly fall to the Borg if she wasn't destroyed, but Picard seemed a little too ho-hum about losing the E-E and then Starfleet building an E-F, as if he takes the unlimited supply of ships for granted.

That's true, isn't it? There is a bit of a "disposable camera" mentality going on. You'd think a ship would be a huge deal.
 
Anyway, while Picard's reaction to the loss of the E-D may seem like justifiable casualness, I thought his reaction to the possible loss of the E-E was also telling. Sure, all hope seemed lost and that the ship would certainly fall to the Borg if she wasn't destroyed, but Picard seemed a little too ho-hum about losing the E-E and then Starfleet building an E-F, as if he takes the unlimited supply of ships for granted.

That's true, isn't it? There is a bit of a "disposable camera" mentality going on. You'd think a ship would be a huge deal.

Um, he was willing to sacrifice his ship to save humanity. I wouldn't call that a "disposable camera" mentality. It's a loss to be sure, but not one that takes much mulling over. He had things to do beyond sit there and mope over it, especially since the clock was ticking. Making an optimistic remark about the future isn't a bad thing to motivate your people with...
 
This thread looks a little like those "Kirk vs. Picard" debates from when the Internet was new. I LOVED those! specially the lists "100 reasons why Kirk is better that Picard", "Picard is better than Kirk", "Data is better than Spock" and so on.

Who wouldnt love "Spock's dad can beat up Data's dad", for example?

Vulcan nerve pinch. Dr Soong would never stand a chance. ;)
 
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