The end of Kurn (brainwashing)

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by NewHeavensNewEarth, Jun 22, 2019.

  1. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    One point in B5 that intrigued me a little bit...
    Lyta says late in the series that even she can't telepathically remove an addiction (e.g. alcoholism). To me, that implies that if you gave an alcoholic 'Death of Personality' you'd end up with an alcoholic who would have no memory of ever having touched the stuff previously.
     
  2. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    That's not going to happen to an alcoholic, though, just people convicted of serious crimes (and the device used to create this condition is a mechanical one like the neural neuralyser in the Dagger Of The Mind episode of Star Trek: TOS.)
     
  3. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Are you suggesting that people who get convicted of serious crimes can't also be addicts?
     
  4. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    No, just saying that said Earth Alliance machine isn't used to treat addiction.
     
  5. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Which wasn't my point...my point was that if a criminal who also had an addiction was sentenced to death of personality then the addiction would remain without an apparent cause...

    Sorry, I guess I didn't realize death of personality is done by a machine...perhaps it can cure addictions then...
     
  6. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    ^No, because said new personality would not have any of the cofactors for an addiction, or anything negative that was in the old personality.
     
  7. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Cite your sources please.
     
  8. NewHeavensNewEarth

    NewHeavensNewEarth Commodore Commodore

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    Or they drown their sorrows in barrels of prune juice. Or they have painstick parties.
     
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  9. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    Any info site about Babylon 5, particularly the Babylon 5 Wiki.
     
  10. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I looked up Mindwipe at that site and I don't see that that article says anything with regards to whether addictions would be eliminated or persist.
     
  11. Thomas Elliot

    Thomas Elliot Commander Red Shirt

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    One of the worst treatments for a Star Trek character. And it didn't make too much sense.
    Worf was dishonored and branded a traiter in TNG. He dealt with it and eventually his family's honor was restored.
    Couldn't the same have eventually happened again? Why didn't Worf reassure Kurn, "We went through this once, brother, and survived. We shall continue to survive, and restore our family's honor once again."

    It seemed like the story was engineered just to have that sad ending where Kurn no longer recognizes Worf. I can't imagine anyone on that ship going a long with that procedure.

    Didn't Worf have his family's honor restored once he killed Gowron and Martok became Emperor?
     
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  12. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Worf was accepted into the House of Martok at some point. The House of Mogh was no more.

    Kor
     
  13. Thomas Elliot

    Thomas Elliot Commander Red Shirt

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    Why couldn't Martok give back his name and honor at least?
    Probably all the land and ships were given to other families. Okay. Wait...you know what? This doesn't make any sense.

    Worf was under the assumption he had no family at one point. His parents killed. No one on Qo'Nos. So he was raised by humans. If he had relatives on the homeworld, surely he would have been raised by them, right? So if they had any land and ships back then, who owned them? Who was maintaining them?

    Kurn is revealed to be his brother and they set about restoring their family's honor. It doesn't happen. But later, Worf and Kurn save Gowron's ass, and he has to restore their honor.

    In that time, the House of Mogh has land and ships, that apparently Kurn runs, and Kurn even manages to get a seat on the high council.

    So why couldn't Martok give Worf back his family name and honor. And on top of that, have Kurn work back up any accumulation of land and ships that would necessitate a successful house? If they wanted to do the honorable, selfless Klingon-without-a-home, great. It was already done though. If you're going to do a redux, make it worthwhile and not just some cheesy solution of, "hey Worf, I'll adopt you." I guess it was to show that Martok and him were true comrades. But it didn't feel substantial. I like shake ups but I don't think the pay off here was worth it. It'd be better if Worf had to endure as the shamed Klingon, but worse than what he went through on the Enterprise. What if he no longer had Starfleet either? That would be interesting.

    Worf losing his family name was another bad development.
     
  14. Roboturner913

    Roboturner913 Commander Red Shirt

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    I thought the whole idea was always, from TNG through the conclusion of DS9, is that Worf is "more Klingon than Klingon." That is to say, he is a reflection of true Klingon values because of his relative isolation from mainstream Klingon society, which gets bogged down in politics and showmanship.

    So if his wishes were to see his brother survive and be a Klingon again, I can't argue too hard against that. Speaking as a person who has battled depression most of my life and contemplated suicide on more than one occasion, it is far more difficult to pick yourself up and keep fighting, even if (maybe especially if) you don't understand or agree why you're fighting in the first place. Beats dying, y'know.
     
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  15. Thomas Elliot

    Thomas Elliot Commander Red Shirt

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    I agree, I also like that Earth-raised Worf is more Klingon than actual Qo’Nos Klingons.
    It was a touching moment when Kurt sheds a tear even though I can’t imagine him crying. I just feel that everyone going along with Worfs plan was way too easy. And more than that, as a viewer I couldn’t understand why Worf didn’t reason with Kurn a little better. They had cleared their family honor once before. At least try to give Kurn hope and say “Brother, we will once again restore our family’s honor like that time Duras slandered it. We’ve been through this before. The House of Mogh WILL be restored! And when it is, our enemies will once again fear us...it will be glorious!!!” If Kurn still wasn’t convinced, okay, I can see him going through with the mind wipe.
    I appreciate you sharing something personal in order to shed some more understanding to the episode. I’m glad things are going better for you now.
     
  16. Paul755

    Paul755 Commodore Commodore

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    Watched this episode for the first time in ages last night.

    I have no problem with what went down. Eventually Kurn would have killed himself, possibly taking others with him. Worf couldn’t watch him every minute of every day. At least it gave Kurn a chance to live and be happy.

    About the only thing I would have added is a scene of Sisko and maybe Bashier giving his/their blessing to the plan.
     
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  17. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Commodore

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    After Worf joined the house of Martok, might it be possible to restore Kurn's memory?
    He would be a member of an influential house with honor.
     
  18. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Bashir said it would be virtually impossible.

    But if memory serves, one of the DS9 novels had him return. I think it was VENGEANCE. (Not canon, I know. And I don't remember much.)

    I don't think it would be good to bring him back... it would cheapen the impact of what Worf did and his last line, "I have no family." That really was such a lonely moment for him, one of his best moments for the character.
     
  19. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So on DS9, just simply altering a deeply depressed individual can solve a mental illness??? Mental illness is a battle within the confines of the brain; I thought it would be the definitive battle for a race of people who craves it. There's more to this which could've been explored and Kurn would be looked upon as the ultimate Klingon warrior to challenge this disease, that's a Star Trek: Deep Space Nine story, but for what the episode was it's another get of jail free card to kill off a character so Worf could have the feeling he's all alone. But Worf is not alone, he's never alone because we know his true family is the crew of the Enterprise, this was a wasted episode and could've been so much more like the first two seasons of the series.
     
  20. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Commodore

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    Interesting since he has a son who later appears on the series. What about his adoptive parents?
     
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  21. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I am aware of Alexander and his human parents. I was referring more to the impact of that scene and the moment.
     
  22. NewHeavensNewEarth

    NewHeavensNewEarth Commodore Commodore

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    When he said he had no family, that was definitely a low point for Worf, in large part because Alexander called him out on it when they were fatefully reunited. Worf had basically acted like he had no son. Now he could act like he had no brother either, washing his hands of both relationships.

    In TNG, I appreciated Worf's bonds with both of them, and I think the character took a big downturn in DS9 with this kind of stuff.
     
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