The Dominion War without the Romulans... guaranteed loss?

[Praetor]

So, I was musing about whether the Romulans really affected the outcome of the war. We are led to believe that they did indeed help, but I can't help but realize that the "real" ultimate reason the war was won was because Odo cured the Founder and agreed to cure the others and go home.

Would this have still happened without the Romulans, or did the Romulan intervention provide key time for Bashir to find the cure? ...Especially when you consider that one of Bashir's key interactions with Sloan of Section 31 revolved around Romulan intrigue in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges." Would the Breen have still entered the war as they did, too? What would an occupied Alpha Quadrant have been like in this scenario, too? Would Romulus's nonagression pact entitle it to share in any benefits of a Dominion victory?

Thoughts?

 

[ATW]

No I firmly believe, with the evidence of the series that the Klingon/Federation alliance could not have won the war if the Romulans remained "neutral" (term used very loosely). The Breen totally turned the war against the Allies.

The most the allies could have hoped for was a stalemate. I see the Romulan's entrance to the war on par with the American's entrance into World War II. It was the thing that made a possible uneasy truce into a victory (man I hate comparing real world wars to Star Trek Wars - even one as loose as I mean to use this one).

Although saying what I said about the Breen Alliance I think it did some harm to the Dominions war effort as it made the Cardassian's, for lack of a better term jealous.

 

[USS Kongo]

I voted no. The Feds and their allies were having a hard time of it even before the Breen came in on the Dominion's side. The Romulans tipped the scales in the favor of the Federation.

Sean

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I voted no. The Feds and their allies were having a hard time of it even before the Breen came in on the Dominion's side. The Romulans tipped the scales in the favor of the Federation.

Sean

Indeed: several episodes, including "In the Pale Moonlight" itself (at the end), "Tears of the Prophets" and "Shadows and Symbols" imply strongly that the allies are only able to begin fighting an offensive war rather than retreating further because of the Romulans. Romulan forces were neccessary to put enough firepower on the frount lines to begin pushing towards Cardassian space.

 

[apenpaap]

During the occupation arc, the Dominion was making a big push, conquering planet by planet. After DS9 was retaken, they retreated for a while, but I always had the impression that that was only temporary, and that they were still winning the war. After the rommies joined, however, the war turned into much more of a stalemate, and "we" even seemed to be on the winning hand in the late half of season 7 (Until the Breen joined the war, that is). I think the war probably wouldn't have been won without the Romulans, therefore.
Sure, the Link would've still gotten sick, and Odo would've still cured the Founders, but the Female Founder capitulated because she was losing the war. Odo only convinced her to stop the fighting, to prevent billions of deaths before it's end. Without the Romulans, the Dominion would've been in much better condition, and it would've been a cease fire at most.

 

[Myasishchev]

Voted yes. The Dominion lost the war when the Prophets closed the wormhole to their traffic, and the Dominion faced an existential threat through Federation biological warfare. The Founders, valuing their own lives above anything, would have had to sue for peace no matter how well their conventional campaign went.

I'm surprised so many people voted no. How big do you think the resource base of Cardassia is?

 

[Kaziarl]

I'm not sure it's accurate to say Odo ended the war. The war was pretty much over when the alliance fleet surrounded Cardassia Prime, and the Cardassian ships turned on the Dominion. What Odo did was stop Cardassia from becoming a giant disco ball in space by convincing the female Founder to tell the Jem'Hadar to stand down.

 

[Anthony Sabre]

No way. If the Romulans never joined, and the Breen still joined the Dominion, the alliance would have been defeated.

 

[Praetor]

Voted yes. The Dominion lost the war when the Prophets closed the wormhole to their traffic, and the Dominion faced an existential threat through Federation biological warfare. The Founders, valuing their own lives above anything, would have had to sue for peace no matter how well their conventional campaign went.

I'm surprised so many people voted no. How big do you think the resource base of Cardassia is?

You bring up a good point I hadn't considered, sir. I guess the better question is: why hadn't I considered it?

I'm not sure it's accurate to say Odo ended the war. The war was pretty much over when the alliance fleet surrounded Cardassia Prime, and the Cardassian ships turned on the Dominion. What Odo did was stop Cardassia from becoming a giant disco ball in space by convincing the female Founder to tell the Jem'Hadar to stand down.

This is true - I was oversimplifying a bit.

 

[nx1701g]

Voted yes. The Dominion lost the war when the Prophets closed the wormhole to their traffic, and the Dominion faced an existential threat through Federation biological warfare. The Founders, valuing their own lives above anything, would have had to sue for peace no matter how well their conventional campaign went.

I'm surprised so many people voted no. How big do you think the resource base of Cardassia is?

The Dominion was still producing ships and troops at rates far faster than the Federation could (ITPM had something akin to the following said: the Dominion is producing ships, your shipyards are being rebuilt; the Dominion is breeding Jem'Hadar; you have a troop shortage). Resources are of no concern if you can pretty much eliminate your enemy before supply lines become a risk.

The Dominion Fleet being stopped was a big problem; however, they simply were forced to build in the Alpha Quadrant. The only Vorta that seemed to know the truth about the Founders was Weyoun and it was clearly said that the Vorta Doctors were executed immediately after their work was concluded. I could see Weyoun hiding the death of the Founder Leader and taking up the war effort himself in their name.

Although, to be honest, I still wish they got the ending that Behr and RDM were pushing for where the Founder Leader didn't order the cease fire while at the console and ordered her ships to open fire...

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Voted yes. The Dominion lost the war when the Prophets closed the wormhole to their traffic, and the Dominion faced an existential threat through Federation biological warfare. The Founders, valuing their own lives above anything, would have had to sue for peace no matter how well their conventional campaign went.

I'm surprised so many people voted no. How big do you think the resource base of Cardassia is?

They didn't have only Cardassian resources, but the resources of all the worlds they had conquered already during the opening months of the war.

 

[Myasishchev]

The vast wealth of Betazed and AR-558, then?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

The vast wealth of Betazed and AR-558, then?

There were many other systems they took, those were only two that were mentioned. Anyway, if the Romulans didn't start hammering the Cardassian/Dominion front lines soon after Betazed fell, the Dominion would have reinforced their position there and launched an invasion of Earth, Vulcan, Andoria, Tellar and Alpha Centauri (as "In the Pale Moonlight" explicitly said was the risk).

 

[Xerxes1979]

Federation science is all powerful. There is no way in hell in a protacted fight the Federation wouldn't have gone fully Manhattan Project on their ass if that was the only way .

Time travel, Genesis torpedo, trilithium device, nanites, interphasic cloak, attacking the ketrecel weakness of the Jem'Hedar, etc.

Some of the galaxy's most advanced tech from dead races is located on world's within Federation space. The Dominion is going to overrun the entirity of Federation space when that didn't even happen to Borg infested reality of TNG Parallels?


The Klingons were handicapped by wasteful acts of honor and bad leadership, the Federation was hobbled by ethical constraints. Never have any doubt that if the true destructive power of these governments was unleased the Dominion would be lying in ashes. The Dominion took 2,000 years to conqueor/develop technology that the Federation naturally progressed to in only 300 years after first contact with the Vulcans.


(On Edit) I accidentally voted no. The poll should be: 23% Yes 77% No

 

[Jono]

I voted no, the Romulan's entry into the war was really the moment the Dominion seemed to have lost the war if it continued in the fashion we saw (no help from the GQ and the allies sticking together).

The loss of the wormhole didn't help but I think at most that evened the ledger a bit more so that the Feds and Klingons weren't so far behind. It gave the Federation and Klingons hope they could win or at least that they wouldn't lose in a few weeks. At that point the war is still up for grabs and I think the Dominion is still ahead with the better chance of coming out on top.

I think it is rather telling that with the entry of the Romulans and discounting the brief respite the Breen's magic weapon gave the Dominion that we did not hear of a telling Dominion victory post-conquering of Betazed.

Post Romulans joining Fed Alliance gains:
- 15 Dominion/Cardassian bases immediately struck
- Romulans liberate Benzar
- Dominion fleet seriously stretched thanks to the third, "Romulan front". The Romulan claim that the Dominion was sending fleets against the allies and they were destroying them
- Chin'toka system is conquered and held for nearly a year
- the Kalandra system and maybe all of the Kalandra sector is reclaimed by the alliance.
- Septimus III is captured, an entire Cardassian order is destroyed in the campaign. This sounds a lot like the alliance hoping to open another front to push into Cardassian territory, like they hoped Chin'toka would be but never did.

As for the Dominion, the best we heard was that they destroyed the USS Cortez and that after an engagement they left the Seventh Fleet at half strength for a subsequent operation, which the Dominion might have won but we never hear anything more about it or that Vulcan is again under threat of invasion.

So the Romulans inclusion won the war for the allies based on the fact that Dominion in the Alpha Quadrant was isolated from meaningful reinforcements from the GQ.

 

[intrinsical]

Sisko said in ITPM that the Romulans would be surrounded on all sides by the Dominion if the Federation and Klingons lost the war. Likewise, wouldn't the Dominion be surrounded on all sides if the Romulans joined the war with the Federation and Klinons?

By entering the war, Romulans has definately increased the size of the war front for the Dominion. This would have forced the Dominion to thinly spread their ships over a larger area. Together with the injection of fresh Romulan ships, I can see how the Romulans can tip the war in the allies favor.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Without the Romulans the war would have been over with a Dominion victory. The Dominion had to fight on another front and had to pull forces away from fighting the Klingons and the Federation to fight the Romulans. Also in the major military engagements without Romulan ships the fleets would have been more heavily outnumbered and therefore the Dominion would have much more easily wiped them out.

BY the way I answered the poll wrong. I answered YES thinking I was answering the question in the thread title "The Dominion War without the Romulans... guaranteed loss?".
I didn't realise you'd written a different question for the poll.

 

[Praetor]

Sorry about that, Tachyon Shield. Sometimes my brain has a flip switch in it. I blame dyslexia. We'll deduct one mentally for you.

 

[Myasishchev]

^At least you know how to post a poll. I was going to the other day, and I couldn't figure it out.

 

[Praetor]

If you make a post, there should be an "add a poll to this thread" option, and then after you post it should let you make it. Don't feel bad it took me a while to figure it out.