The Dauphin

[Sakrysta]

I just re-watched this episode. There are so many little things that make it one of my favorites. One of the best is Riker's demonstration with Guinan of how to pick up a woman. That whole scene just makes me grin every time I watch it.

But overall, I just like the sweet little romance that Wesley and Salia have. I find their innocent joy in getting to know each other to be utterly charming. I looked up the girl who played Salia, and she hasn't done much else. Too bad.

 

[Danny99]

The only thing I find mildly entertaining about this episode is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0_70d-KVe4

 

[Planetary]

The only thing I find mildly entertaining about this episode is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0_70d-KVe4

lol....Is Worf gonna have to smack a bitch?

 

[euphorik]

I just re-watched this episode. There are so many little things that make it one of my favorites. One of the best is Riker's demonstration with Guinan of how to pick up a woman. That whole scene just makes me grin every time I watch it.

But overall, I just like the sweet little romance that Wesley and Salia have. I find their innocent joy in getting to know each other to be utterly charming. I looked up the girl who played Salia, and she hasn't done much else. Too bad.

i can think of (a few) worse episodes, but this one's pretty bad and contains one of the top (bottom?) 3 stupid lines in the entire series - "please believe me...ten-forward is NOT an illusion."

that wesley is one smooth operator...

 

[JustKate]

I don't hate this episode, and the relationship between Wesley and Salia is sweet - and I kind of like the crotchety governess/duena/chaperone character. But that Riker-Guinan scene is way up there on my list of Scenes that I Wish TNG Hadn't Shown Me.

Quite possibly how one reacts to that scene depends a lot on how one feels about Riker. Those who like Riker no doubt enjoy it. But for those of us who don't, Riker giving lessons in how to be a smooth operator isn't funny and it isn't informative and it doesn't make us think about what a charmer he is. It makes us cringe. It makes us roll our eyes. When I watch this episode, find a reason to leave the room (a visit to the bathroom or a nice drink from the kitchen) when this scene comes on.

 

[Sakrysta]

^LOL - for me, that scene is just as much about Guinan's and Wesley's reactions to his demonstration as it is to the demonstration itself. And really, I don't think Riker meant it as serious either once the ball got rolling and Guinan started playing along. It seems pretty obvious that they were both playing the cliche as broadly as possible, which is what makes it so funny.

 

[JustKate]

^ If by "I don't think Riker meant it as serious," you mean he wasn't actually seriously trying his stuff on Guinan, I agree. Definitely not. But we were supposed to think that this was a demonstration of how dang charming he could be - at least that's how I read the scene. He was supposed to be showing Wesley how to charm a woman, and this was his demonstration.

And it just did NOT work for me. I found it entirely cringeworthy. Sorry - really and truly - but I did. Then again, I almost always (with a few notable exceptions) found Riker cringeworthy when he was supposed to be the romantic hero, and I know I'm not alone in this, just as I know that there are lots of people who disagree with me. This is the way he so often strikes those of us who really just don't like the character.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

The episode is just slightly above average. The Wesley-Salia relationship actually plays out fairly well considering that this is, afterall, an "aw-shucks" performance from Wesley. Worf-Anya is pretty intriguing. But the VFX are unforgivable.

As for the Riker-Guinan scene ... I've always been mildly amused by it, but I can see how it can rub people the wrong way.

 

[Kestra]

I just re-watched this episode. There are so many little things that make it one of my favorites. One of the best is Riker's demonstration with Guinan of how to pick up a woman. That whole scene just makes me grin every time I watch it.

But overall, I just like the sweet little romance that Wesley and Salia have. I find their innocent joy in getting to know each other to be utterly charming. I looked up the girl who played Salia, and she hasn't done much else. Too bad.

I love this episode too! I feel like the whole episode itself is kind of simple and naive which is exemplified in Wesley/Salia's romance.

The Guinan/Riker scene always makes me laugh, but what I really love is this bit at the end:

Wesley Crusher: I'm never gonna feel this way about anyone else.
Guinan: You're right.
Wesley Crusher: I didn't expect you to say that.
Guinan: There'll be others. But every time you feel love, it'll be different. Every time it's different.
Wesley Crusher: Knowing that doesn't make it any easier.
Guinan: It's not supposed to.

 

[Alrik]

Worf-Anya is pretty intriguing. But the VFX are unforgivable.

I'm sorry, but that statement is kinda laughable. At the time the ep first aired, the VFX were considered state of the art. You do realize that if you had a computer in 1989, your most likely options for operating systems were Windows 2.0x or NeXTSTEP 1.0 GUI, right? The computer tech for convincing shapeshifting didn't exist yet, and especially not on a TV show budget. Hell, the VFX for shapeshifting in TUC on a movie budget two years later were only a little bit better.

On topic. Not a bad ep. Very watchable for season two. And I guess I'm in the camp that can see the humor in the Riker/Guinan scene.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Worf-Anya is pretty intriguing. But the VFX are unforgivable.

I'm sorry, but that statement is kinda laughable. At the time the ep first aired, the VFX were considered state of the art. You do realize that if you had a computer in 1989, your most likely options for operating systems were Windows 2.0x or NeXTSTEP 1.0 GUI, right? The computer tech for convincing shapeshifting didn't exist yet, and especially not on a TV show budget. Hell, the VFX for shapeshifting in TUC on a movie budget two years later were only a little bit better.

Honestly, how or why really don't matter -- it's the end result which is relevant. And, to me at any rate, what is laughable is the visual effect itself. If the technology wasn't available, then they ought to have tried something different ... something that doesn't look as bad as the effect looked at the time.

 

[Alrik]

Honestly, how or why really don't matter -- it's the end result which is relevant. And, to me at any rate, what is laughable is the visual effect itself. If the technology wasn't available, then they ought to have tried something different ... something that doesn't look as bad as the effect looked at the time.

You're missing the point. 20 years ago, it looked pretty damned impressive. At that time, we'd seen nothing like it before...or even close. By the time of DS9 was it already dated? Absolutley. But allow me to let you in on a little secret, 20 years from now, todays VFX will likey look just as dated.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

I think you are missing my point: The quality of the VFX in "The Dauphin" are unforgivable -- regardless of how, why, or even when they were created.

As a case-in-point, the VFX of Star Wars, for the most part, still look pretty believable, while those of The Phantom Menace at times do not -- and as good as they were in 1999, there were people at the time calling BS on how they didn't quite fit with a live-action tale. It's the difference between a show knowing how to stay within the limits of available technology to create something truly believable on-screen and using bleeding-edge technology to "show off" and yet fail to create something that fits into the show.

Besides, no matter how "cutting-edge" the VFX might have been at the time, I still remember laughing, out loud, when I first saw "The Dauphin" and the effects used for the transformations. Even if they used cutting edge tech back then, it they still didn't look anything close to believable.

 

[Alrik]

Whatever. To each his own, I guess. I'll agree to disagree. I, personally, have always watched Trek (starting in '72) more for the storys, than for the 'kewl' VFX. If you're not happy with what you saw, so be it. It does look cheesy by todays standards. I just think that calling it 'unforgivable' is waaaay over the top.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Whatever. To each his own, I guess. I'll agree to disagree. I, personally, have always watched Trek (starting in '72) more for the storys, than for the 'kewl' VFX. If you're not happy with what you saw, so be it. It does look cheesy by todays standards. I just think that calling it 'unforgivable' is waaaay over the top.

I, too, watch Trek more for the stories than the VFX ... but when the show tries to do something it shouldn't, it certainly opens itself to criticisms. I expected more from TNG, especially in its second season, to find more practical ways of conveying a story. And quite frankly, no matter how much effort, or innovation, went into the VFX of that episode, the result is, in my opinion, a severe liability -- especially considering how the rest of the series pretty much maintains a more "realistic" (for the parameters of TNG at least) visual presentation.

And mayhap "unforgivable" is "waaaay over the top," but if so, then calling the post "laughable" is likewise "over the top."

 

[CoveTom]

You're missing the point. 20 years ago, it looked pretty damned impressive. At that time, we'd seen nothing like it before...or even close. By the time of DS9 was it already dated? Absolutley. But allow me to let you in on a little secret, 20 years from now, todays VFX will likey look just as dated.

No, 20 years ago it still looked like crap. The technology that created it was damned impressive for the time, but the end result was that it looked like a crap effect. They should have written around it and not used that effect rather than do something that the technology of the time couldn't support.

And, BTW, age has nothing to do with it necessarily. There are visual effects from 2001: A Space Odyssey in the 1960's that still look like real, live action shots today. There are visual effects from movies made this year that look like crap. I am a firm believer that at least 80% of the quality of visual effects has nothing to do with the available technology, but with the artistry and talent of the person doing them.

 

[Alrik]

S.Walters

Point taken. The comment was made as a direct reply to unforgivable.


I'll admit, my fur goes up when Trek VFX becomes the issue. I loved what I found after school at the age of 5. I was completely drawn in by TOS. It looked so real compaired to the old Buck Rodgers movies that you could find on a Saturday afternoon. The classics where you could see the wire and the sparkler shooting out the tail as they bobbed the ship up and down.

I will also admit to being completely blown away by Star Wars in '77. That one upped the bar forever. I will also say that it has been, and continues to be, fun to watch the evolution of VFX. However, I also hold a great respect for what was able to be accomplished at each point in time over the years. So, yeah, I'm probably a little protective of Trek and it's VFX.

 

[CoveTom]

^ That I understand. I can watch TOS and enjoy it and not be pulled out of it by the visual effects because the show itself was so good.

But, OTOH, I don't try to claim that the TOS effects were anything spectacular. 2001 was made in the same era. It was possible to do much better effects than what TOS did. But TOS didn't have the time or the money, and really, flashy special effects weren't integral to their story.

And that, to me, is what makes Star Trek unique. The visual effects should look as good as the people can make them. But Star Trek has always been about the story, not the effects, and it's when the producers stop relying on the story that things go wrong.

 

[Alrik]

Now that I can agree with. Well said.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

S.Walters

Point taken. The comment was made as a direct reply to unforgivable.


I'll admit, my fur goes up when Trek VFX becomes the issue. I loved what I found after school at the age of 5. I was completely drawn in by TOS. It looked so real compaired to the old Buck Rodgers movies that you could find on a Saturday afternoon. The classics where you could see the wire and the sparkler shooting out the tail as they bobbed the ship up and down.

So, yeah, I'm probably a little protective of Trek and it's VFX.

Definitely understandable. Trek is (usually) more about the stories than it is about the "window dressing" around the stories. For example, I don't know how you tell a story like "The Arena" (which I thoroughly enjoyed) without a guy in a silly-looking rubber lizard suit. It's just that, at times, the series seems to ignore its obligation to be as honest in its portrayal of events as it can be. And, for my part, this particular episode is one of those moments where the VFX really become a detriment.

But yeah, generally, I agree with you: the story is more important than the effects.