The (big) Making of TMP book....

[Warped9]

I recently received my copy of Return To Tomorrow: The Filming Of Star Trek - The Motion Picture.

Sadly no pics of any kind. And this is a thick and lengthy read. But I'm looking forward to it and I've already started into it.

Nothing really revealing yet except for small thing: the character of Wil Decker exists in the film as a remnant of original Paramount intent to get rid of Kirk. Their initial idea was to eliminate altogether or at least kill off Kirk early on as a move to distance the film from its television roots (or something stupid to that effect). Roddenberry kept fighting this until this best he could do was keep Decker as demoted to First Officer. Apparently Roddenberry never wanted the character of Decker in the first place or at all, but TPTB held on to the possibility of Decker eventually replacing Kirk.

Apparently they finally caved and allowed Decker to be the one written out.

 

[Kor]

Wasn't the Decker character developed for Phase II? I thought the intent was for Kirk and Decker both to be regular characters if the series had been produced.

Kor

 

[Warped9]

Wasn't the Decker character developed for Phase II? I thought the intent was for Kirk and Decker both to be regular characters if the series had been produced.

Kor

Before Trek 2.0 became Phase II it was in development as a film. Thats where TPTB wanted a new young Captain instead of Kirk. There seems to have been a bone against the Kirk character so they pushed this idea to of a younger replacement.

Then the film is morphed into a series idea (Phase II) with the general idea that Decker will eventually supplant Kirk as the focus character (much as Riker was initially meant to be the "go to" guy instead of Picard in TNG when it came to action and landing party duties.

When Phase II is finally aborted and they go back to committing to a feature film Decker's relevance is finally toast.

At least that is how I'm reading this.

 

[Avro Arrow]

I recently received my copy of Return To Tomorrow: The Filming Of Star Trek - The Motion Picture.

Do you mind if I ask where you purchased it from? I've been interested in this, but I haven't got it yet because of CF's exorbitant international shipping. (Although because of your post, I checked their site just now, and it looks like they've dropped their international shipping to a much more reasonable $14.75. Too bad the dollar's in the toilet! )

Some Amazon marketplace sellers have it on Amazon.ca... for $77 used or $97 new.

 

[Maurice]

Sorry, but all this Kirk and Decker stuff in the posts above is wrong. Which pages from Return to Tomorrow are you referencing? And, more importantly, whom is being quoted? Or it is some of the framing text?

The desire to get rid of Kirk was something going on during what started as Planet of the Titans (officially Star Trek—The Motion Picture), where Phil Kaufman only really cared about Spock as a character and kept pushing to recast with movie actors. It might've been the case in some of the earlier movie talks. There's no Decker sort of character in Kaufman's treatment (trust me on this). Decker was invented for the Star Trek [Phase] II series.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Nothing really revealing yet except for small thing: the character of Wil Decker exists in the film as a remnant of original Paramount intent to get rid of Kirk. Their initial idea was to eliminate altogether or at least kill off Kirk early on as a move to distance the film from its television roots (or something stupid to that effect). Roddenberry kept fighting this until this best he could do was keep Decker as demoted to First Officer. Apparently Roddenberry never wanted the character of Decker in the first place or at all, but TPTB held on to the possibility of Decker eventually replacing Kirk.

Remember reading one bit in either that book or somewhere elsewhere it said one director wanted to kill of the 'tv crew' in the opening to make way for film stars. wonder who they wanted? probably Newman, Redford, Shaw as the captain, first officer, doctor

 

[Therin of Andor]

Nothing really revealing yet except for small thing: the character of Wil Decker exists in the film as a remnant of original Paramount intent to get rid of Kirk.

That's not the interpretation I get, nor is it what we learned about "Phase II" as it was being conceived. Nimoy had flatly refused to participate (although Nimoy himself said that they tried to secure him for guest appearances), hence the creation of Xon. Shatner was making no secret of wanting a feature film career, non-Trek-related and had committed to only the first 13 episodes, pending the outcome of ratings success (and his film career). Had he decided to leave midway through the first season, Decker would move into the captain role from Episode #14 and Shatner would have had the option of guest appearances as "the Admiral" in sweeps week.

wonder who they wanted? probably Newman, Redford, Shaw as the captain, first officer, doctor

I thought that Newman & Redford, then-recently from "The Sting", were mooted as the feature film Kirk and Spock (although who was playing who?). About the same time, Roddenberry bumped into Walter Koenig and suggested he might like to play... Chekov's father.

 

[Warped9]

Do you mind if I ask where you purchased it from? I've been interested in this, but I haven't got it yet because of CF's exorbitant international shipping. (Although because of your post, I checked their site just now, and it looks like they've dropped their international shipping to a much more reasonable $14.75. Too bad the dollar's in the toilet! )

Some Amazon marketplace sellers have it on Amazon.ca... for $77 used or $97 new.

I ordered it from Amazon.com.

Sorry, but all this Kirk and Decker stuff in the posts above is wrong. Which pages from Return to Tomorrow are you referencing? And, more importantly, whom is being quoted? Or it is some of the framing text?

The desire to get rid of Kirk was something going on during what started as Planet of the Titans (officially Star Trek—The Motion Picture), where Phil Kaufman only really cared about Spock as a character and kept pushing to recast with movie actors. It might've been the case in some of the earlier movie talks. There's no Decker sort of character in Kaufman's treatment (trust me on this). Decker was invented for the Star Trek [Phase] II series.

Page 14 quoting Gene Roddenberry. It's there in black-and-white. TPTB initially wanted to be rid of Kirk one way or another. Decker was the compromise to allow for Kirk's return (in the initial film ideas which eventually became Phase II which eventually became TMP).

I'm presently up to only Page 22 so this issue might well be addressed again later and explained more fully, but for now I don't see how Gene Roddenberry's quote can be interpreted any other way. His words impress as pretty plain and clear.

 

[Therin of Andor]

http://creaturefeatures.com/shop/books/returntotomorrow/
http://www.amazon.com/Return-Tomorr...The+Filming+Of+Star+Trek+-+The+Motion+Picture

 

[Maurice]

Page 14 quoting Gene Roddenberry. It's there in black-and-white. TPTB initially wanted to be rid of Kirk one way or another. Decker was the compromise to allow for Kirk's return (in the initial film ideas which eventually became Phase II which eventually became TMP).

Of course it's in black and white. Why else would I have asked you for the page #?

Now, knowing what I know about the long chain of events leading to TMP what Roddenberry described on p.14 is mostly about the aborted 1977 Kaufman film, as confirmed by his "the Jerry Isenberg project crashed down" quote. He may have created Decker in response to studio concerns, but that was after Kaufman's project got a bullet in the head (there's no Decker type in Kaufman's treatment, I can assure you) and they went right into Star Trek [Phase] II. Roddenberry refers to "the effort to 'un-television'" it, which only makes sense as regards Kaufman's film since Star Trek [Phase] II was television. So Decker was created for TV. If Paramount was so concerned the cast from TOS was "unclean" then why would they have permitted him to bring ALL of them back for the TV show, including Rand, and yet complain about Kirk? It doesn't quite add up.I can see them wanting a younger lead than Shatner, though.

The problem with quotations like this one on p.14 are that:

1. Star Trek's restart went through fits and starts in various incarnations, and many of these get conflated when they were not the same project, and...
2. Roddenberry as a source is problematic as it' been many times demonstrated that he was the very model of an Unreliable Narrator who enjoyed casting the studio and network as villains, often unfairly and untruthfully.

 

[Warped9]

^^ I'm just going by what I read. That said I see a problem when there are no dates attatched to the quotes. As such it's difficult to know when something is taking place. The Roddenberry quote seems to indicate he's talking about when TPTB were thinking of doing a film before they commit to a new television series (Phase II). Hence the invention of Decker as a possible replacement for Kirk.

The idea of Ilia doesn't seem to have been invented to replace anyone but merely to add another alien to the Bridge crew. Xon, of course, was invented because Nimoy wasn't then interested in returning.

 

[Nightowl1701]

The idea of Ilia doesn't seem to have been invented to replace anyone but merely to add another sexy curvy piece of female eye candy to the Bridge crew. Xon, of course, was invented because Nimoy wasn't then interested in returning.

FTFY.

If Paramount was so concerned the cast from TOS was "unclean" then why would they have permitted him to bring ALL of them back for the TV show, including Rand, and yet complain about Kirk? It doesn't quite add up.

Likely figured the rest of the cast hadn't seen much work since TOS and would be happy just to be getting a paycheck again, hence they wouldn't be making waves. Shatner, otoh and as mentioned, had kept busy during the 70's and was itching to get into major film roles any way he could. I wonder, though, if some of his infamous 'egotistical, difficult to work' behavior carried over into Barbary Coast and his other 70's work and if that informed studio attitudes towards him.

 

[Maurice]

I should add that in the earlier Scott-Bryant Titans treatment Kirk disappeared for the entire second act and was replaced by a Capt. Gregory Westlake. That character left the story prior to Kaufman's treatment.

 

[Maab]

I should add that in the earlier Scott-Bryant Titans treatment Kirk disappeared for the entire second act and was replaced by a Capt. Gregory Westlake. That character left the story prior to Kaufman's treatment.

I'm sorry Maurice, but I must ask: do you have the "Planet of Titans" treatment?

 

[Maurice]

Nope. The Westlake character in mentioned in several descriptions of the story, notably in The Making of ST:TMP book.

 

[Warped9]

This isn't the first time I've heard of this schism between television and film of that era. I've heard (read) references to it several times over the years. Things have changed greatly since those days, but it was a real bias.

 

[Pauln6]

So likely for Phase II, Kirk (first half of season one), Decker, Xon, McCoy(?), and Ilia would have been the stars. Would the other characters have been given star billing as well or semi-regular appearances like TOS? I've glanced through the existing scripts and not every character is mentioned in every one.

Battlestar Galactica had three 'stars' and then a cast of 7 or 8 co-stars (Apollo, Starbuck, Adama; then Athena, Tigh, Boomer, Cassiopeia, Baltar, Jolly, Boxey, plus Sheba for the second half), and then a few recurring guest stars and a few recurring support characters to deliver background dialogue. Not all the co-stars appeared in every episode but some did. Sheba certainly became a very prominent female lead once she was introduced. Space 1999 had three stars and then a host of recurring support characters who did not receive star billing at all, like TOS. I wonder which route they would have gone down.

 

[jaime]

It's a damn good book. But long.
I particularly live technical special effects stuff, but that part in particular needs (and even seems to refer to) pictures or diagrams.
The book it most reminds me of is Future Noir: the making of Blade Runner, which is the only other time I have been so desperate to get a book that I bought an expensive import. This was the first time however I imported it from the suppliers myself.
I would consider buying a cheaper new edition, particularly on Kindle, if it came with some behind the scenes photos for the tech stuff.

It really challenges a lot of the ideas about the motion picture, and I challenge anyone not to come away from it with a better opinion of the film. It certainly makes TMP suddenly become far and away the most financially successful film (because you suddenly have an idea of what it's actual budget was when you take out the way nearly a decades worth of false start cost were tacked on) and it's possibly the first time that Star Trek was literally approached as a piece of art on almost every level.
It made me sad for that almost lost era of seventies/eighties sci fi film making. I think after that the phrase 'recycled the shot from' and 'reused the model from' becomes too common place. This book reminds me of those behind the scenes documentaries on LoTR where people lost their fingerprints forging real armour.

It's also interesting because this is where the trend for bring back TV shows as film franchises seems to start. (someone in the book, I think DeForest, says this is literally the first time this has been done.)

Suddenly, TMP becomes and extremely relevant historical film, and reading about the Hollywood dynasties and talent working on it is incredible. It's even amusing to see Ve Neil, she of current Face Off fame, turn up early in her career. (though not, as an episode of said show says, working on Klingons) you can see the line from early Hollywood and Chaplin, leading right up through this film, before the line gets broken it seems somewhere at the end of the nineties.
(Michael Westmore, who takes over Trek make up duties from Fred Philips, is third generation Hollywood make up family. He crops up in his early career over on Blade Runner. The recent marriage of his daughter to Patrick Tatopolous could mean that technical dynasty will run and run....honestly books like this make behind the scenes on sci fi films sound like Dune.)

 

[drt]

This isn't the first time I've heard of this schism between television and film of that era. I've heard (read) references to it several times over the years. Things have changed greatly since those days, but it was a real bias.

It sure was. Shoot, I'm old enough that I still occasionally catch myself thinking that a movie star's career must be fading when I see them in a TV show. On the flip side, you'll still very, very rarely see an "A-list" movie star appear on TV, so the bias is still there to some extent.

 

[Warped9]

This is a slow read, not helped by me having a cold the past few days.

What is unmistakable, though, is seeing how much real thought went into all aspects of this film. It's also interesting to note that some of the criticisms aimed at the finished film were genuine concerns of the creative team throughout production. It's a pity they weren't able to find solutions to those issues much earlier.