The Admiral dilemma...

[Vanyel]

Dane_Whitman said:
Before Voyager's Alpha Quadrant episodes Admiral Paris was repeatedly hinted to be a tyrant who gave little Tom a really hard time! Guess that particular Admiral redeemed himself on the rebound.

We only had Tom's biased view of him. He may have pushed Tom a bit too far, but like a lot of fathers, he realized that and, I would like to think, became a better father and a happy Grandfather.

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

Underachieving or underperforming children usually think that. You still have to push them. It's a father's job. Build a bridge, son.

 

[Mike Farley]

Admiral James T. Kirk was neither spineless nor insane.

 

[Morpheus 02]

Has someone somewhere has made an "evil admiral" list...

just like not EVERY redshirt died in TOS, there are a few decent admirals...but by & large, they seem to be jerks or incompetant.

Based on screen time, admirals weren't great in Trek. As opposed to Stargate, where due to Gen. Hammond, flag officers can actually be good & smart people, making tough calls.

p.s. Kirk wasn't a great admiral (he got beat up by Khan, remember? ) -- he was a good captain!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Jingle Balls said:
Who was the dickwad Admiral who used Ro to cover up his ethnic cleansing of the Bajorans?

Admiral Kennelly.

And also, there was Admiral Pressman who was a major tool

...of Section 31, probably.

Babaganoosh said:
And Nechayev...oh lordy, was she ever teh hotness...I bet she is absolutely white-hot in the sack.

I guess you'll never know.

Quite. Although when she showed up as a doctor on 24, I thanked God for small favors.

 

[mada101]

It was much easier to follow in TOS:

- Admirals: Hard-ass, 'bigger picture' types.
- Commodores: Useless and/or insane types.
- Captains: Renegade and/or dead types.

Hey, we might get Nechayev in the new film, during the 24th century bits :-) Doubtful, but hey...would be great.

 

[DS9forever]

I really liked Ross too. He was like "the O'Brien of the Admiralty" to me. He was a good character in the novels too.

 

[mada101]

I liked Nakamura. Shame they only used him twice.

 

[DS9forever]

Thrice actually. He was in "The Measure Of A Man", "Phantasms" and "All Good Things...".

 

[mada101]

Wasn't he only mentioned in 'All Good Things...'? I don't remember him appearing.

 

[JiNX-01]

Babaganoosh said:
Admiral Forrest (ENT) was cool.

I was going to say that.

 

[JD]

mada101 said:
I liked Nakamura. Shame they only used him twice.

If it makes you feel any better I think they use him quite a bit in the books.

 

[Ghel]

Mike Farley said:
Admiral James T. Kirk was neither spineless nor insane.

But he was rather bossy and incompetent in the motion picture.

He reduces Decker in rank (abeit temporarily) which is something no Admiral even did to him in TOS.

He takes command of the Enterprise having little to no knowedge of the ships upgraded systems.

He orders the Enterprise to warp against Scotty's recommendation. (Yes, they were in a hurry, but a destroyed ship can't stop VGer either!)

When Decker saves Kirk's butt from the wormhole that Kirk's impatience created, Kirk begins to chew Decker out in front of the bridge crew.

Even after Kirk learns that he was wrong, he insists on taking Decker into his quarters to informally dress him down. Even Bones has to tell Jim to stop pushing.

Really, Kirk blundered through that whole film.

 

[ClayinCA]

Ghel said:

Mike Farley said:
Admiral James T. Kirk was neither spineless nor insane.

OK, not that Kirk is perfect, but...

He reduces Decker in rank (abeit temporarily) which is something no Admiral even did to him in TOS.

But TOS never had a situation where an Admiral relieved Kirk of his command while keeping him aboard the ship.

He takes command of the Enterprise having little to no knowedge of the ships upgraded systems.

...but with what he (and Nogura, evidently) believe to be a superior knowledge of how to command a mission like that one. Also, he's smart enough to keep Decker around because Decker does have the knowledge Kirk lacks of the ship's upgraded systems.

He orders the Enterprise to warp against Scotty's recommendation. (Yes, they were in a hurry, but a destroyed ship can't stop VGer either!)

Can't really argue with this one.

When Decker saves Kirk's butt from the wormhole that Kirk's impatience created, Kirk begins to chew Decker out in front of the bridge crew.

No, he doesn't. It might be clear to those present that Kirk is going to chew Decker out, but all Kirk actually says is, "Mr. Decker, I'd like to see you in my quarters."

Even after Kirk learns that he was wrong, he insists on taking Decker into his quarters to informally dress him down. Even Bones has to tell Jim to stop pushing.

Kirk doesn't learn he was wrong until he talks to Decker in his quarters. McCoy does have to set Kirk straight on a few points, but it's important to note that after this scene, Kirk does back off on Decker and treats him much more fairly.

Really, Kirk blundered through that whole film.

How do you figure?

 

[Harry Palmer]

Sci said:

PrinceAlbert said:

The Wormhole said:
Admiral Ross was aactually a pretty decent guy, Section 31 thing aside.

Actually the 31 thing was a plus. Advancing the suborned head of the Tal Shiar to second in command of the Romulan Empire was a good thing.

Koval wasn't made second in command of the Empire, he was just made a member of the Continuing Committee. And I think it was bloody stupid to end the life of a Romulan who had been friendly to the Federation for the sake of an operative whose loyalties were by definition questionable.

Senator Kreetak was a Romulan patriot, whose interests lied in doing what was best for Romulus and if that were to be throwing away the Alliance then she would. Koval had been a Section 31 source for years. His pro-Federation motives were much more authentic. Even if they weren't 31 had more than enough evidence to extort or blackmail him into cooperating. Although I think Koval was a genuine pro-Fed in the vein of an Oleg Penkovsky.

 

[Ghel]

[/QUOTE]

How do you figure?

[/QUOTE]

He blundered through the film in that the only real action Admiral Kirk takes is to bring the ship into VGer (which, granted, Decker thought was "unwarranted")

It is ultimately Spock who takes the proactive move of contacting VGer. Admiral Kirk merely follows Captain Spock!!!

Need I mention that Admiral Kirk is also responsible for the severe damage caused to the Enterprise in the following film because he doesn't raise shields even after he is reminded to do so by an ENSIGN!?!

While Kirk did win the contest with Kahn, Spock and many others wouldn't have died if he would have followed orders.

Admiral Kirk, BAD!
Captain Kirk, GOOD!

Incidentally, while no Admirals took command of Enterprise in TOS, at least one Commodore did. He didn't demote Kirk. Thank goodness for Carbomite.

 

[Kadratis]

I think the quote by Madonna really represents Nechayev well:

"Sometimes you have to be a bitch to get things done."

Too true.

 

[ClayinCA]

Spock isn't a Captain in TMP. Kirk is the one who works out how to deal with V'Ger ("the child").

 

[Red Ranger]

As already pointed out, in other shows, higher-ups are perceived as pain-in-the-ass, superior types, like Colonel Barnfather in Homicide, or Daniels, Capt. Furillo's boss, in Hill Street Blues.

So at times, many of the admirals portrayed in ST fit that mold. But it did become a stereotype, thankfully contradicted by characters like Forrest in ENT.

I'll also point out that Admiral Quinn wasn't all bad, except when he was taken over by one of the aliens in the TNG ep "Conspiracy."

It would be refreshing to have a recurring admiral character in a future ST show like Forrest who wasn't a power-hungry ass.

Red Ranger

 

[ClayinCA]

I agree with that. I wasn't a big fan of Enterprise, but I liked Admiral Forrest a lot and found him a refreshing change from the Trek stereotype.