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Terok Nor mining

GulGoneCrazy

Lieutenant
Red Shirt
OK ,Terok Nor or the DS9 used to be a mining station,but i never saw any mining instrument on it, did it use powerful tractor beams to strip resources from the planet?Or it possess powerful teleporters to teleport ore from surface?

Or simply freighters carried all to pylons and than to the DS9's ore processing part?
 
Off hand, I believe that big glowy red tower hanging off of the station's center core was involved. And there was at least one episode where we did see part of the ore processing facility, but it's been years since I watched DS9 through so I can't begin to tell which show it was on...

--Alex
 
The glowing thing are reactors or stations power plant(in STBC and few other sources say so ).Too bad there is not much about it, i really wonder how station power its self.
It is made of 2 or more reactors as wee seen in DS9 episode "Forsaken" when Miles O'brien is mentioning something about reactor 2 not working at its expected efficiency.
 
The station was intended to process the ores mined on Bajor and elsewhere in that star system for transport back to Cardassia Prime. Shipments were usually sent up by freighter, I believe, although there may have been some usage of cargo transporters as well.

Subject to correction, of course...
 
It may be the Cardassians placed their expensive ore refining stuff in orbit mainly to get it out of reach of Bajoran terrorists. Otherwise, it would hardly make sense to haul useless rock up to orbit just to get the tiny bits of precious minerals out of them. No doubt there were several parallel processing lines for various types of minerals. (Plus all the administrative and weapons systems needed for oppressing the planet, of course.)

Now, we see plenty of docking ports on that thing, so it's clear how the minerals were hauled to Cardassia eventually- conventional starships would do the trick. But how did the unrefined ore get up there?

The Tech Manual barely touches upon the refining operations, as those are in the past from the point of view of the book. Supposedly, the processing systems were mainly in the six pylons, and possibly the refined products were shipped out through the docking ports and chutes at the tips of the pylons. But the Manual never makes it clear if the ore arrives from the top and the product leaves at the bottom - although this is probably the gist of things on p.53.

Another possibility, and perhaps a more logical one, would be for the ore to arrive by transporter. But the Manual talks about mass limitations and describes the transporters as personnel and cargo units rather than ore feeds.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Ore processing was clearly a very labour-intensive operation, which made a large planet full of free workers a tempting prize. I can't see the Cardassians being particularly bothered about using them inefficiently to get the job done.

Expensive, energy-intensive technology like transports surely wouldn't have been wasted on beaming rocks to the station - remember the driving force behind Cardassian expansion was a lack of material resources.

They came to Bajor, enslaved her people, used them to mine the ore in the most inefficient but cheap way possible. It wouldn't surprise me if it was largely done by hand, loaded onto ships, and them taken to Terok Nor for the extraction.

It seems to solve lots of problems - they get their ore, they make use of all those people they are paying soldiers to guard, and all the vital business of processing the ore is done aboard the space station, which is practically invulnerable to the Bajorans.

I see the whole mining operation as more a means of oppression than an effective way to extract minerals. It's like they turned the entire planet into a gulag. It was a low-cost, low-priority operation for Central Command, with a mere Gul in charge. Despite Dukat's delusions, he was sent to a backwater.
 
Strongly agreed with all that, but...

Expensive, energy-intensive technology like transports surely wouldn't have been wasted on beaming rocks to the station

...but any other way of moving rocks to space would probably have been even more wasteful. Transporters appear to be the preferred means for moving just about anything for Starfleet, preferred over spacecraft such as shuttles, so why not for the Cardassians?

In pseudotechnological terms, the energy costs of hauling rocks to the sky could be countered by antigravity tech or by teleportation, neither of which seems to much respect energy conservation laws. But in tactical terms, transporters would be the safe solution, as terrorists can't shoot down transporter beams... And safety would seem to have been a major concern, or else the refinery would have been sitting on the surface of the planet.

Timo Saloniemi
 
It may be the Cardassians placed their expensive ore refining stuff in orbit mainly to get it out of reach of Bajoran terrorists. Otherwise, it would hardly make sense to haul useless rock up to orbit just to get the tiny bits of precious minerals out of them.
Actually, I think the whole point was that DS9 handled ore processing for the entire system, not just Bajor. Makes more sense to leave the facility in orbit instead of requiring the ore ships to haul their cargo up from the moons/asteroids, fly to Bajor, then land again, process the ore, then lift it up again and send it to Cardassia.

More importantly, it fits with Cardassia's overall agenda. Having the facility on Bajor would mean building a small city around it and housing the Bajorans in it. Infrastructure would build up around it, Cardassian citizens and administrators would want some more luxuries for themselves, a garden here, a tennis court there, and a couple of ambitious Guls might build an arts center or a museum or something for the local school children.

A space station, though... who the hell wants to live on a space station? Leaving it in orbit means it never grows too far beyond an administrative center with a small support population. The Bajorans never reap any benefit from Cardassian industry in the long run; the Cardassians take EVERYTHING.

The Tech Manual barely touches upon the refining operations, as those are in the past from the point of view of the book. Supposedly, the processing systems were mainly in the six pylons, and possibly the refined products were shipped out through the docking ports and chutes at the tips of the pylons.
It was pretty clear to me: ore freighters docked at the pylons, ore was offloaded and pumped through the plyons and processed along the way. Finished products arrived at the cargo bays in the docking ring where they were loaded onto transports and shipped to Cardassia. Those little knobs on the backs of the docking ports (insides of the docking ring) are actually the cargo bays where processed material is stored before being loaded and shipped out; the three big docking ports adjacent to the pylons themselves are actually intended for passengers/transports/military vessels.

What's never made clear is how it works in the LOWER pylons. The upper pylons use the station's gravity field to let the ore "flow down hill" to the bottom of the pylon, but the lower pylons are never explained. I would assume, however, that the lower pylons process different kinds of ores from which a lighter weight (or even gaseous) product is extracted and runs uphill as the heat rises. Maybe the Cardassians were enriching Uranian?

Another possibility, and perhaps a more logical one, would be for the ore to arrive by transporter.
I think it does that anyway, since the pylon docking ports are so small and narrow and don't really connect to a cargo bay when you go through them. I actually think that most of the ore gets transported around through a replicator-like system that sucks it out of the hoppers on the freighter and materializes it directly into a processing bay in neat little chunks for Bajoran slav -- or -- indentured workers to haul around.
 
Ore processing was clearly a very labour-intensive operation, which made a large planet full of free workers a tempting prize. I can't see the Cardassians being particularly bothered about using them inefficiently to get the job done.
You're assuming that enslaving the Bajorans in the ore centers was a means to an end. These are Cardassians we're talking about; they probably DESIGNED the ore processors to be as labor intensive as possible just to give those workers something sufficiently humiliating and difficult to do. Terok Nor's labor pool was probably drawn from political prisoners and/or petty criminals sentenced to hard labor for various minor crimes and the vindictiveness of Cardassian bureaucrats; that a lot of them died while doing this kind of work has to be seen as intentional.

They came to Bajor, enslaved her people, used them to mine the ore in the most inefficient but cheap way possible. It wouldn't surprise me if it was largely done by hand, loaded onto ships, and them taken to Terok Nor for the extraction.
True that. My point is, there's no TECHNICAL reason for making Bajoran workers do it by hand. They mainly did it because they were assholes.
 
Actually, I think the whole point was that DS9 handled ore processing for the entire system, not just Bajor.

But what evidence do we have for mining elsewhere in the system? Even Bajor's own moons never were associated with mining, Cardassian or otherwise.

Granted, though, that the existence of Bajoran colonies on Bajor VIII is pretty good evidence of Cardassian mining there. After all, the Bajorans themselves were such homebodies that they apparently never even colonized their own fifth moon, a Class M world, until the Cardassians came!

Finished products arrived at the cargo bays in the docking ring where they were loaded onto transports and shipped to Cardassia.

This doesn't seem to be what the Manual describes. It speaks of an inflow of goods at the top pylons, an outflow at the bottom pylons, and thus perhaps implies a throughflow from top to bottom, but never suggests that the cargo bays would play any role in the ore processing.

Terok Nor's labor pool was probably drawn from political prisoners and/or petty criminals sentenced to hard labor for various minor crimes and the vindictiveness of Cardassian bureaucrats

Or then the people who got to work up there were privileged specialists who got all sorts of perks and a lot of technical training to boot.

Nowhere in DS9 is it actually established that slave labor would have been used on Terok Nor. Down in the mines, yes, but not up in the station as far as we know. When Kira pretended to be a station worker in "Necessary Evil", she didn't pretend to be a slave.

We do see stationside ore carts being hand-pushed in the Mirror Universe. But in ours, the only time the carts are hand-pushed is when our heroes use deactivated ones to their own purposes. For all we know, the processing was not labor-intensive at all - except of course in the Mirror world where the starships are no doubt powered by furiously pedaling slaves etc. etc.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Ironically, the Borg cube looks more like a mining station than a spacecraft. A mining station really needs to look more industrial--DS9 looks more like a resort. Narada could at least be said to be based on a vampire squid--enveloping asteroids with arms and directly extracting ore through its limbs.

I guess large scale separating of raw ore was done on the surface and densified--and only the most valuable nuggets found their way upstairs.
 
Actually, I think the whole point was that DS9 handled ore processing for the entire system, not just Bajor.

But what evidence do we have for mining elsewhere in the system? Even Bajor's own moons never were associated with mining, Cardassian or otherwise.
I have a vague recollection of some kind of industrial pollution on at least one of Bajor's moons caused by Cardassian mining. All that aside, though, considering basic planetary physics, it's a given for a system like Bajor that heavy metals and elementals would be easier to mine from asteroidal bodies and small inner-planet rocks, while more exotic hydrocarbon and exotics would be plentiful in comets and gas giants. The latter might explain DS9's lower pylons; frozen ices brought in from comets might be boiled away in the lower pylons while the valuable vapors rise to the top to be collected and condensed.
Finished products arrived at the cargo bays in the docking ring where they were loaded onto transports and shipped to Cardassia.

This doesn't seem to be what the Manual describes. It speaks of an inflow of goods at the top pylons, an outflow at the bottom pylons, and thus perhaps implies a throughflow from top to bottom, but never suggests that the cargo bays would play any role in the ore processing.
IIRC, they were describing how it was being used by the Federation. The Cardassian model was pretty straightforward (and was explicitly described in "Civil Defense").

Nowhere in DS9 is it actually established that slave labor would have been used on Terok Nor. Down in the mines, yes, but not up in the station as far as we know. When Kira pretended to be a station worker in "Necessary Evil", she didn't pretend to be a slave.
In light of the horrific working conditions the Bajorans were said to endure, not to mention the rather elaborate and draconian defense mechanisms the Cardassians installed in the event of a revolt, I highly doubt those workers were there voluntarily.
 
DS9 is often called a old mining station however that did not look very real after fed upgrades(it had powerful weapon systems before but they were very likely removed by Cardassians before leaving station).After Fed upgrades it becomes powerful as we seen in "way of the warrior" for example.
So stations like Terok Nor are not build just for mining i guess since it has a powerful hull systems,shielding and power systems witch powered all those weapons that were installed after. So Nor stations are primary mining but also it has ability to defend it self...Just imagine how much of Nor stations defending cardassian planets had to be destroyed during dominion war.I believe there was a lot of Nor stations built since Cardassians had luxury to leave two of them to the Federation and Bajorans.
 
I have a vague recollection of some kind of industrial pollution on at least one of Bajor's moons caused by Cardassian mining.

In "Progress", there was going to be pollution on Bajor's fifth moon from Bajoran energy production - they were going to waste a Class M body that way! But the place seemed largely untouched before the episode. Indeed, the three people we met there had fled the Cardassians to this apparent sanctuary - and later in "The Siege" it appears that the resistance had a weapons stash there as well, again indicating absence of Cardassian activity.

easier to mine from asteroidal bodies

We know the Cardassians didn't "go out" much, as they had no idea there was a wormhole in the Denorios Belt. I doubt they were interested in broader exploitation of the system - the Manual suggests they only wanted the uridium from Bajor.

rise to the top

It strikes me as profoundly silly to install a deliberate "up" and "down" on the space station just for distillation purposes. Why not have the necessary column organized as a compact spiral, when you can choose the direction of gravity at will?

IIRC, they were describing how it was being used by the Federation.

Nope - the Federation doesn't use it for ore refining at all. But the Cardassian use was mentioned in the passing on pp. 53-54, in the past tense. Namely,

"...the Cardassian ore operations were conducted in sequence. One Upper Pylon would be occupied with a docked freighter transferring its load, another pylon would be processing a load, and a third would be performing conveyor purges and periodic maintenance and awaiting the next freighter. The Lower Pylons operated in similar fashion. One pylon would support a docked freighter taking on refined uridium [..]"

The Cardassian model was pretty straightforward (and was explicitly described in "Civil Defense").

How so?

In light of the horrific working conditions the Bajorans were said to endure, not to mention the rather elaborate and draconian defense mechanisms the Cardassians installed in the event of a revolt, I highly doubt those workers were there voluntarily.

The place didn't sound any more hellish than the average 19th century steel mill. Many would have killed to get a chance to work in one, as the wages would have meant a difference between life and death. No doubt similar pressures existed for the Bajorans, but in capitalism, that's considered "freedom".

I believe there was a lot of Nor stations built since Cardassians had luxury to leave two of them to the Federation and Bajorans.

Good point. The Tech Manual tries to claim that the station is the largest space refinery known to the Federation, but Cardassians apparently built far larger space stations for other purposes (we see several of their dockyards) and no doubt could have afforded to build many more "Nor" stations.

On the other hand, we could argue that Terok Nor and Empok Nor were almost unique stations for almost unique purposes, and therefore were abandoned: their only practical applications evaporated when Bajor and some other location with the rare combination of desirable, refinable ores and slave labor were lost.

Timo Saloniemi
 
It strikes me as profoundly silly to install a deliberate "up" and "down" on the space station just for distillation purposes. Why not have the necessary column organized as a compact spiral, when you can choose the direction of gravity at will?
Doesn't seem like they CAN chose the direction of gravity at will, considering the layer-cake deck layout of the station; even with artificial gravity, building in concentric rings with "up" placed at the center of the core would enable them to double the number of docking ports, make the docking pylons considerably more accessible and would allow all six pylons to have a "downhill" run for ore processing.

For whatever reason, though, artificial gravity only EVER runs in a single direction for the entire station/ship, with some slight variation caused by inertial dampeners. So we should seriously consider the possibility that artificial gravity is a tricky thing to work with in more than one direction, especially in an enclosed space.

Nope - the Federation doesn't use it for ore refining at all.
I'm talking about the movement of goods and products, by which time the Federation was using the facilities originally devoted to ore processing for merchant storage and scientific equipment.

Sisko made a number of references to the ore chute (though which they later climbed) being full of "molten uridium" which flowed downhill into the ore processors from the freighters at the top of the pylon.

The place didn't sound any more hellish than the average 19th century steel mill. Many would have killed to get a chance to work in one, as the wages would have meant a difference between life and death. No doubt similar pressures existed for the Bajorans, but in capitalism, that's considered "freedom".
But even in capitalism there's a relatively thin line between wage slavery and ACTUAL slavery, and it has a lot to do with your relationship with the boss, especially whether or not you are getting paid to work or ORDERED to work.

A man might still be considered an "indentured servant" instead of a slave, depending on the nature of his relationship with his boss; he is not merely a worker, though, because he isn't being paid for his work. OTOH, a slave who pockets a regular salary in the form of food, clothing, shelter and a small allowance doesn't cease to be a slave until his master can no longer claim undisputed control of that slave's life and property.

We already know what happened to Bajorans who argued with the management. Less clear is what -- or IF -- those workers were paid for their labor.
 
...building in concentric rings with "up" placed at the center of the core would enable them to double the number of docking ports, make the docking pylons considerably more accessible and would allow all six pylons to have a "downhill" run for ore processing.
Direction of gravity isn't a factor in the internal arranging of the roughly spherical core, or the narrow inner ring. And for all we know, all six pylons indeed provide a "downhill" run towards the middle. Or towards the top, whichever works better. From "Crossfire", we know long vertical drops exist, and like you say, this may be because local sharp variations may be difficult to do. But it doesn't follow that a long vertical drop from bottom to top couldn't be arranged for a pylon that stands far apart from the other gravitated decks.

I'm talking about the movement of goods and products, by which time the Federation was using the facilities originally devoted to ore processing for merchant storage and scientific equipment.
I'm not sure they ever were. Merchant storage would have been an original Cardassian functionality, and there should have been plenty of overcapacity for managing the later Bajoran needs without modifying anything. In contrast, "Civil Defense" is the first time we hear of our heroes tampering with the original ore processors, and it also sounds like this is the first time they are doing so.

(Speaking of original functionalities, I'm pretty sure we can dismiss the Manual idea about the runabout docks being a Starfleet addition. Not only do we see them in the Terok Nor flashbacks (and Mirror universes), but their value to the occupation force would also be obvious...)

Sisko made a number of references to the ore chute (though which they later climbed) being full of "molten uridium" which flowed downhill into the ore processors from the freighters at the top of the pylon.
He says once that there was a flow from their original location to a secondary refining facility at "level 33"; he then said that "This is where the uridium ore was separated from the rock. Then it would be dumped down that chute to the processing facility.". The source of the ore (freighters, transporters, beanstalks?) was not mentioned as such.

But when our heroes finish their upward journey, they still have to get "up" to Ops...

FWIW, "Crossfire" shows our heroes boarding at level 2D on an upper pylon, and supposedly having to go past level 44 to reach the Promenade (that is, the horizontal passages thereto). So level 33 ought to be somewhere high up on a pylon, which doesn't fit with "Civil Defense".

But if we assume the lower pylons have reverse numbering schemes (and the letters, from A to F, perhaps denote the specific pylon), and our heroes were in the upper parts of a lower pylon in "Civil Defense", then things look a tad brighter. But that would still mean the ore came down either from the very top or from the Docking Ring, leaving us with options rather than answers. Perhaps the ore arrived via loading bays or huge transporters in the habitat ring and traveled outward through the spokes?

OTOH, a slave who pockets a regular salary in the form of food, clothing, shelter and a small allowance doesn't cease to be a slave until his master can no longer claim undisputed control of that slave's life and property.
I'd think occupation would make every Bajoran citizen a slave in that respect - but everybody onboard Terok Nor who wasn't a comfort woman was in fact indicated to be either a privileged collaborator or (like Kira's alias) somebody who was free to come and go.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Direction of gravity isn't a factor in the internal arranging of the roughly spherical core, or the narrow inner ring.
Only because their gravity plating is arranged in a strict "down" direction along with the rest of the station; this constitutes a highly inefficient use of their internal space considering the way it was designed.

(Speaking of original functionalities, I'm pretty sure we can dismiss the Manual idea about the runabout docks being a Starfleet addition. Not only do we see them in the Terok Nor flashbacks (and Mirror universes), but their value to the occupation force would also be obvious...)
I'm 50/50 on this one. Cardassians don't seem to have any spacecraft of the right size and shape to justify those pads, but other people -- Ferengi shuttles, commercial transports, etc -- might find them useful.

He says once that there was a flow from their original location to a secondary refining facility at "level 33"; he then said that "This is where the uridium ore was separated from the rock. Then it would be dumped down that chute to the processing facility.". The source of the ore (freighters, transporters, beanstalks?) was not mentioned as such.
If this is meant to be consistent with the tech manual, it meshes nicely with the description of the ore processors in text.

FWIW, "Crossfire" shows our heroes boarding at level 2D on an upper pylon, and supposedly having to go past level 44 to reach the Promenade (that is, the horizontal passages thereto). So level 33 ought to be somewhere high up on a pylon, which doesn't fit with "Civil Defense".
Doesn't fit in what way?

But if we assume the lower pylons have reverse numbering schemes (and the letters, from A to F, perhaps denote the specific pylon), and our heroes were in the upper parts of a lower pylon in "Civil Defense", then things look a tad brighter. But that would still mean the ore came down either from the very top or from the Docking Ring, leaving us with options rather than answers. Perhaps the ore arrived via loading bays or huge transporters in the habitat ring and traveled outward through the spokes?
I think you're hanging way too much on the phrase "up to ops" in civil defense. I've had people tell me to meet them "down the street" but that doesn't mean they intend for me to physically travel underground.

I'd think occupation would make every Bajoran citizen a slave in that respect - but everybody onboard Terok Nor who wasn't a comfort woman was in fact indicated to be either a privileged collaborator or (like Kira's alias) somebody who was free to come and go.

I never actually got the impression that Kira was free to come and go. I thought it was implied she was EXPECTED to come and go when ordered to by the occupation government, but where she went -- and when -- was ultimately up to the Cardassians.
 
Only because their gravity plating is arranged in a strict "down" direction along with the rest of the station; this constitutes a highly inefficient use of their internal space considering the way it was designed.

There's nothing inefficient about arranging the core that way. It's a sphere, and it's not going to get any more useful if you build it as an onion; "horizontal" decks are definitely the way to go.

As for the rings, well, Cardassians wanted rings. What else would be more efficient in expanding from a central core? Spherical shells? Doesn't work for two reasons: "onions" are an inefficient use of floor space (curvature makes rooms useless, angles on the floor are worse) and they block access from inside to outside. A ring is great for rooms-with-views and for those runabout pads.

Cardassians don't seem to have any spacecraft of the right size and shape to justify those pads

They don't "seem" to have any spacecraft capable of delivering ore to the station, either. Which probably just means we're not looking in the right places.

FWIW, towards the end of the series, we did see some smallish shuttles, shaped roughly like the Hideki vessels (but only coarsely rendered in CGI for background use).

Doesn't fit in what way?

Our heroes in "Civil Defense" cannot be climbing towards the top of an upper pylon, as they ultimately reach a level that gives them horizontal access and allows them to go "up" to Ops. The latter may be "down" to semantics, admittedly, but the former is a major physical constraint. And no, it can't be a case of them getting out of the locked-up processing spaces and taking the turbolift back down, because the turbolifts are locked up as well.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Only because their gravity plating is arranged in a strict "down" direction along with the rest of the station; this constitutes a highly inefficient use of their internal space considering the way it was designed.

There's nothing inefficient about arranging the core that way. It's a sphere, and it's not going to get any more useful if you build it as an onion
That is mathematically disprovable. A 100 meter sphere, divided up into 33 decks, has exactly half the deck space as the same sphere divided into 16 layers. Granted, some of that deck space is going to be too curvy to be really useful, but being a hollow pit in the middle of the core, that makes an ideal space for machinery anyway.

As for the rings, well, Cardassians wanted rings. What else would be more efficient in expanding from a central core?
Concentric rings with the decks angled "outwards" from the core so that the docking ports are on the sides of the rings instead of the outward/radial axis. You could fit twice as many docking ports on the same station, plus the window view would be a lot nicer.

Cardassians don't seem to have any spacecraft of the right size and shape to justify those pads

They don't "seem" to have any spacecraft capable of delivering ore to the station, either.
Their freighter/transport designs seem to fit the bill perfectly.

Our heroes in "Civil Defense" cannot be climbing towards the top of an upper pylon, as they ultimately reach a level that gives them horizontal access and allows them to go "up" to Ops. The latter may be "down" to semantics, admittedly, but the former is a major physical constraint.
It's a lot more likely to be semantics, Timo, unless the pylon they were in actually some unseen structure directly below the core.
 
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