Tauriel: great idea or big mistake?

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by GreenDragonKnight, Aug 27, 2018.

  1. GreenDragonKnight

    GreenDragonKnight Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    The debate's been going on for about 5 years now, and will probably continue to go on for the foreseeable future, so this seems like a good place to get some thoughts on the matter: there are those who say that it was wrong, just plain unforgivably, inexcusably wrong to bring in a completely non-canon character. Understandable, but, on the other hand, without her, it would have been an all-guy show because, think about it: Bilbo is a man, Gandalf is a man, Gollum is a man (well, male, anyway), all the dwarves are men and all the elves in the book are men. So, without her, women would have had no representation in the movie whatsoever.
     
  2. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    She was far from the worst part of those abominations. My preference for a single film would have been to just make some of the Dwarves female. Bearded female dwarves that Bilbo couldn't tell from the men and assumed they were all male.
     
  3. saddestmoon

    saddestmoon Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Tauriel was a worthy addition to the movie adaptations, IMO.

    As far as female characters being in middle-earth: the more the merrier, I say!
     
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  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    She was just fine in DoS and I honestly didn't think she go the way that she did. But, Battle of the Five Armies went a horrible direction in terms of the character. I think if Legolas had been removed, or reduced, and the love angle removed, she would have done well, and stepped in to the "badass Elf" role just fine.

    So, great idea but ultimately let down in the final film.
     
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  5. LJones41

    LJones41 Commodore Commodore

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    Great idea. I loved Evangeline Lilly's performance as Tauriel in the second and third movies. Especially the second film. Also, she and Aidan Turner had great chemistry.
     
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  6. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Often when I see/hear Tauriel's inclusion criticized, it has less to do with the character herself and more to do with the decision to create a romantic relationship between her and Kili, but what tends to get lost in translation is that it was actually Guillermo Del Toro's idea not only to include her, but to include the subplot involving her and Kili as well, although there are elements of said subplot that evolved and changed over the course of the production, particularly in regards to Legolas.
     
  7. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It never really occurred to me that she was invented for the movies. She was unquestionably one of the best characters in them (which, sadly was not a hard thing to accomplish). Anyone who actually points to her as in any way a major problem for these movies while ignoring the poor writing, ridiculously drawn out story and crappy fx is someone whose opinion I cannot take seriously.
     
  8. Mage

    Mage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I seem to recall an interview when Lilly said she only wanted to do the part as long as there wasn't romance involved. Jackson said ok. Later on, turned out there was a romance.

    Googled it: https://www.hypable.com/evangeline-lilly-hobbit-love-triangle-interview/
     
  9. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ She didn't say no to a romance; she said no to a love triangle. It's important to remember that distinction.

    The stuff with Legolas having affection for Tauriel and being resentful of Kili was added, at the request of the studio, as the story evolved, and is something that Jackson clearly regrets not standing his ground on.
     
  10. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    I loved the character. I agree with Fireproof, get rid of Legolas, and personally, tone down the love affair or get rid of it altogether, preferably.
     
  11. SPCTRE

    SPCTRE Badass Admiral

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    It's regrettable that there essentially was sort of a un-earned, unnecessary romance involving her character shoehorned in.

    Other than that, she was a fine character and as others have pointed out, the alternative would have been an utter sausage fest.
     
  12. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I thought Tauriel was a fine addition, and I liked her interactions with other characters.

    When I rewatched the Hobbit trilogy earlier in the year, I couldn't help but wonder what Tauriel did during the War of the Ring.
     
  13. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Neither but minor mistake; fine addition/character in herself but still an unfortunate example of expanding the story to two films, let alone or especially three films.
     
  14. Reverend

    Reverend Admiral Admiral

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    Tauriel was a good idea in principle, but like a lot of things in those movies the execution left a lot to be desired. Part of the problem is the weird, not terribly convincing love triangle and by extension she really needed a better reason to be in the movie after the Dwarves left Mirkwood.

    Maybe if Legolas's role were dialled back so he only got a guest role and just have him either stay behind with his father, or sent elsewhere (perhaps to do with the Gandalf/Necromancer side of things) while Tauriel is sent after the Dwarves it might have worked better?

    The thing is, so many of the creative decisions surrounding those movies are so intertwined that if you start pulling on one thread the rest start to unravel. You'd just as well start from scratch at that point.
     
  15. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And here come the misperceptions.

    As I already stated, Guillermo Del Toro helped create Tauriel AND the Kili/Tauriel romance subplot, both of which are elements that would have appeared in the two-film Duology he'd spent two years prepping for and that Peter then 'rejiggered' when he stepped in to direct the project.

    I've also pointed this out in the past, but the amount of material that was added when the Duology was expanded into a Trilogy ultimately amounts to only about 1/4 of the combined footage total of all 3 films, which is substantiated by the shooting dates outlined in the Trilogy's Extended Edition Appendices.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
  16. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Hot take: artistically speaking, the Hobbit movies were always doomed. Maybe partnering with Aardman Animation for a claymation single-movie adaptation (and reducing the number of dwarves to four or five) could have worked, but there was probably no possible way a live-action movie could ever have properly captured the spirit of the book without feeling wildly out of place with the LotR films.

    (And this is from a guy who rather enjoys AUJ.)
     
  17. GreenDragonKnight

    GreenDragonKnight Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah unfortunately I gotta agree with the latter part of this statement. While I think LOTR was absolutely superb, the Hobbit was a very mixed bag. Very mixed. Parts of it were wonderful, parts of it were crap-a-roni.

    As for the character, I think it was a good idea to bring her in, if nothing else so that woman had a presence they sure as all hell didn't have in the book. But the romance... uh-uh! Shouldn't have done that.
     
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  18. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    1. Jackson should have stuck to the original story and knocked it down to two shorter movies rather than three over-bloated ones. The Gandalf side-plot with the Necromancer makes a really good 45 min fan-film (The Battle of Dol Guldur) but was just bloat in the context of these films.

    2. There was a fair opportunity for Legolas cameos: once in Mirkwood, and at his father's side in the Battle of the Five Armies. Cameos, not entire subplots.

    3. I think Tauriel could have been worked in as well, but not as a main character. Any time you had the elves, she could have made an appearance. The bottom line is that there were just no female characters in The Hobbit as written by Tolkien. Not every movie or story has to have a female hero or character. In others they play the central role. :shrug:
     
  19. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm one of the few people who actually likes The Hobbit movies, and I liked Tauriel. The movies really needed to have at least one female character, and I had no problems with the way Tauriel was added into the story. But I will confess I'm a big fan of Evangeline Lilly, so I might be a tiny bit biased.
     
  20. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Once Del Toro left the production, and Jackson came on to direct just to save the money spent on development, the studio demanded it be a trilogy of three-hour films, just as LOTR had been. Jackson had little choice but to make it that way, and as such, he and his writing partners, Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens, went out of their way to make whatever they added be as close to something Tolkien would have written as possible. Jackson relied on the other two being huge fans of Tolkien to achieve this.

    As such, the story of Tauriel and Kili bears more than a passing resemblance to Tolkienesque romances, including but not limited to "The Lay of Luthien".

    Once Jackson was required to add four hours of material to what should by rights be either one five-hour, or two two-and-a-half hour films, cameos went off the table in favor of extended subplots.

    Every production has one limitation it shares with all others, regardless of source material, story, or production staff; it must appease a general audience. There is no such thing, if there ever was, as making a big budget small film. For a film to make money, it must draw audiences, and anything that can cause word of mouth to negatively affect the box office must be reworked into an asset, or dropped.

    In today's world, that means appealing to a plurality audience, and that means including anything they can to draw the diverse elements of it into the theater. If that means adding a female character into a story sourced from a 'boys' club' style story, then you add a female character. Especially if not doing so causes the 'girls' club' to attack your production. It doesn't have anything to do with what the original was like. It has only to do with how best to appease an audience that either has no familiarity with, or actually doesn't like, the original, so that you get the largest audience possible.
     
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