Surprise Over Romulans?

[Vader47000]

By 2233, no human had ever seen a Romulan (and lived to tell, at least). This was one of the foundational tenants of the Federation-Romulan relationship after the war ended in 2160.

Also, the Romulan-Vulcan shared history was murkily understood at best.

But the Kelvin seemed to understand the Narada was a Romulan ship. I would think that a more Trek-relevant response would have been to assume the guy who appeared on the screen was a Vulcan at first.

I of course can only assume that the Kelvin incident prompted the Federation to try to open relations with Romulus, who at this point was staying isolated (and in the proper timeline would remain so for more than 30 years more). Such a diplomacy could explain a more familiar attitude with the Romulans in the alt-2258.

Another thing I was thinking regarded the Kobyashi Maru simulation as depicted in 2258. When seen in 2285 (Star Trek II), the simulation involved a potential incursion across the Klingon neutral zone to rescue the ship, which was a treaty violation (though a Klingon attack on a Federation ship in the neutral zone would also be an act of war ... that always bugged me, how the Federation was always afraid to even enter the Neutral Zone, but the Romulans and/or Klingons felt they could go in at will).

But the Klingon version of the Neutral Zone I believe was established with the Organian Peace Treaty in 2267 as depicted in TOS. Now, obviously this is wiped out in the new timeline, but otherwise there doesn't seem to be a mechanism to establish the Neutral Zone early. Now, obviously all this is just conjecture, and there could well have been something between 2233 and 2258. After all, the Federation was probably in a diplomatic mess with the Romulans that was brand new to this timeline.

BUT. Obviously the writers of the film just copied the ST2 template for the Kobyashi Maru, rather than thinking outside the box. That the situation could apply to any hostile government. And in 2258, it may have made more sense to apply it to the Romulans or another territorial species. I believe the scenario in ST2 was written for the Romulans before the script changed to make them Klingons. Hence, the creation of the Klingon Neutral Zone that had never been mentioned before.

 

[Oso Blanco]

You are absolutely right, the Kelvin crew shouldn't have immediately recognized the Romulans and the Klingon Neutral Zone didn't exist yet.

But there are more things that can't be explained away by changes Nero did to the timeline:

- Delta Vega near Vulcan
- Beaming someone over lightyears onto a ship travelling at high warp
- Kirk's eye color

By the way, why dit the Enterprise crash into the destroyed fleet at Vulcan? What happened to the sensors? Wouldn't it be wise to scan the area before dropping out of warp? And what would have happened if they didn't drop out of warp? Would they have gone right through the debris? This is just another scene that was done purely because it looked cool ...

I'm sure there is more, but that's all I could come up with at the moment.

 

[adm58]

By the way, why dit the Enterprise crash into the destroyed fleet at Vulcan? What happened to the sensors? Wouldn't it be wise to scan the area before dropping out of warp?

I thought that sensors were impaired while the drill was firing, same reason they could not use subspace radio or beam down.

 

[Michael]

You are absolutely right, the Kelvin crew shouldn't have immediately recognized the Romulans

Maybe the ship had a Romulan signature. You know, they had audio contact with the Romulans in the past. So I guess they recognized the frequencies or something similar.

Delta Vega near Vulcan

Could be another planet of the same name. Or, it wasn't near Vulcan at all. What we saw in the mind meld was simply a visualization of Old Spock's perceptions during Vulcan's destruction.

Beaming someone over lightyears onto a ship travelling at high warp

It has been done by the Dominion in the 24th century. It's not at all unlikely that Old Spock knows of that technology and brought it to the 23rd century.

Kirk's eye color

It's a different actor.

 

[Jeri]

Yeah, speaking of that: someone earlier said Kirk's eyes in TOS were brown; but they always looked hazel to me.

 

[-Brett-]

By 2233, no human had ever seen a Romulan (and lived to tell, at least). This was one of the foundational tenants of the Federation-Romulan relationship after the war ended in 2160.

Also, the Romulan-Vulcan shared history was murkily understood at best.

But the Kelvin seemed to understand the Narada was a Romulan ship. I would think that a more Trek-relevant response would have been to assume the guy who appeared on the screen was a Vulcan at first.
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But the Klingon version of the Neutral Zone I believe was established with the Organian Peace Treaty in 2267 as depicted in TOS.

All the more evidence that the changed timeline business is nothing more than an attempt to gradually wean the- how can I put this delicately? -crazy fans off of old Trek and on to the new. It shouldn't be taken too literally.

 

[Phily B]

Good shout about the Dominion and transporter tech. Maybe Scotty didn't invent it, Spock just threw it out there because it was needed and decided to just credit it to Scotty. And it was likely they recognised it as a Romulan ship from the patterns on the hull, and the emissions from the ship as closely matching those of the Romulans. They didn't exactly look like Vulcans either, they were tatooed, heads shaved bald and while they had pointy ears I doubt anyone noticed that since they were in a pretty terrible position.

 

[Peter the Younger]

The Kelvin didn't need to recognize Romulans on site, they just needed to figure out it was a Romulan ship. The revelation that "Romulans share a common ancestry with Vulcans" could have been accelerated by the aftermath of that event.

Frankly, I say good riddance to that one; BoT was a great episode for it's time, but the background of the story - primitive atomic weapons in the Earth-Romulan War, no romulan bodies found by Earth, subspace radio only - is increasingly anachronistic and hard to swallow.

 

[Vader47000]

And the whole "You're the Montgomery Scott who invented transwarp beaming" (wtf?)

Not "Hey, Scotty. We served together 40 years"

And don't give me this "wean the crazy fans off" BS. The writers specifically created a storyline that takes advantage of time travel within the established Trek continuity, which they clearly had no intention of honoring. If they wanted to do a straight remake, they should have done that. But they tried to have their cake and eat it too, and even had the characters express this in dialogue "our destinies are different" "changing the future, isn't that cheating."

If they want to pull that crap, they have to expect to be called out for it.

My solution? Assume it was always an alternate reality Nero and Spock went to. None of the rules apply. None of the old timeline. It's really the only thing that makes sense.

Of course, there's plenty of shit just within the context of the NEW universe that isn't very good.

 

[Vader47000]

The Kelvin didn't need to recognize Romulans on site, they just needed to figure out it was a Romulan ship. The revelation that "Romulans share a common ancestry with Vulcans" could have been accelerated by the aftermath of that event.

Frankly, I say good riddance to that one; BoT was a great episode for it's time, but the background of the story - primitive atomic weapons in the Earth-Romulan War, no romulan bodies found by Earth, subspace radio only - is increasingly anachronistic and hard to swallow.

Except by the logic of this film, the circumstances of the Romulan War wouldn't be any different. Go with the total alternate universe theory

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Maybe it is an alternate universe, has always been. I wouldn't mind. I don't think it's that big a deal.

 

[Captain_Amasov]

- Beaming someone over lightyears onto a ship travelling at high warp

Spock brought that trick back with him from the late 24th century, the Dominion have transporters that can reach several lightyears away and other species have exhibited this ability in other areas of the galaxy, so it isn't unprecedented.