Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miffy?

[ancient]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Yeah, this belongs in TNZ. Though honestly, a Trek forum isn't the best place to debate such things in the first place, imo, given the large portion of jabbing from people uninterested in actual conversation because they don't take the other POV seriously to begin with.

But anyways...this is clearly not a technical question about how tech works.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Ah, but this is...

The Babel fish is small, yellow and leechlike, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

ancient said:

But anyways...this is clearly not a technical question about how tech works.

It's a question about if technology is allowed to work, or whether some people would dispense with the existence of technology if they had the chance. The creation of technology cannot be alien to the exacting of ethics. It's only a question of which set of ethics are applicable in being a roadblock to the creation and utility of technology dangerous or otherwise.

 

[Forbin]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

I don't have an answer, but I think Guy's question is perfectly valid and a good springboard for some interesting discussion. I think anyone getting upset by the question are saying more about their own insecurities and prejudices than about any perceived prejudice on Guy's part.

 

[Argus Skyhawk]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Guy Gardener said:
It's a question about if technology is allowed to work, or whether some people would dispense with the existence of technology if they had the chance. The creation of technology cannot be alien to the exacting of ethics. It's only a question of which set of ethics are applicable in being a roadblock to the creation and utility of technology dangerous or otherwise.

So, are you wondering whether religious people would be morally offended by a UT and try to stop it from being built? The answer to that is "Nah". I never heard of a religion that interpreted the Tower of Babel story to mean that it is wrong to translate languages.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Well the easiest way to avoid any problems with the Universal Translator would be to convert to a non-Christian religion.

Problem solved.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Argus Skyhawk said:

Guy Gardener said:
It's a question about if technology is allowed to work, or whether some people would dispense with the existence of technology if they had the chance. The creation of technology cannot be alien to the exacting of ethics. It's only a question of which set of ethics are applicable in being a roadblock to the creation and utility of technology dangerous or otherwise.

So, are you wondering whether religious people would be morally offended by a UT and try to stop it from being built? The answer to that is "Nah". I never heard of a religion that interpreted the Tower of Babel story to mean that it is wrong to translate languages.

I suppose it's possible there is such a religion. Of course it probably has like 3 members worldwide.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Jack Bauer said:

Argus Skyhawk said:

Guy Gardener said:
It's a question about if technology is allowed to work, or whether some people would dispense with the existence of technology if they had the chance. The creation of technology cannot be alien to the exacting of ethics. It's only a question of which set of ethics are applicable in being a roadblock to the creation and utility of technology dangerous or otherwise.

So, are you wondering whether religious people would be morally offended by a UT and try to stop it from being built? The answer to that is "Nah". I never heard of a religion that interpreted the Tower of Babel story to mean that it is wrong to translate languages.

I suppose it's possible there is such a religion. Of course it probably has like 3 members worldwide.

Jack, the cluster of religions I singled out is HUGE, with so much give and take, that I doubt very few people are aware of every single taboo in the literature from the old testament through to Mormon. Personally I found Leviticus hysterical where it calls for the execution of all fortune tellers as well as anyone who worships the fire god Baal. Do people still do that?

Living in the modern world, we've made compromises about which areas of the literature are wrote, and which bits are silly, like the approval of slavery or killing people because they fun of bald people? The backlash from the original question has pretty soundly asserted that the bible story I used as a springboard to construct this somewhat (totally) outrageous and hyperimaginairy situation was just one of those silly areas of the religion people chose to ignore.

I am pissed this stopped being light or about technology.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

The Borg Queen said:Well the easiest way to avoid any problems with the Universal Translator would be to convert to a non-Christian religion.

Problem solved.

Naturally, because non-Christian religions are uniformly so much more "tolerant," right? For that matter, the "atheist religion" is most tolerant of all... just look at how little bloodshed and how few "purges" have been committed under atheistic regimes (like Stalinist Russia, or Cambodia).

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Guy Gardener said:I am pissed this stopped being light or about technology.

Well, to be fair, you walked in with a big bucket of gasoline, dumped it out, let it get all nice and vapory, and then lit a match. You have no grounds, then, to claim that you're "surprised" at the fact that there was a little "boom" here.

There are two issues... first, this is NOT a technological issue at all. You wanted to discuss PHILOSOPHY AND ETHICS, not technology. I'm personally in favor of having a "Philosophy of Trek" forum... but such seems to be lacking today. You have distracted from the real point of this particular forum... the discussion of "if this technology were real, how might it work?"

But second... you came in and showed a great deal of disrespect for a topic that is very important to many people. You didn't say "Would God approve of the use of the universal translator?" You said "Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miffy?" MIFFY? Now, suppose for a moment that God is real... and that He's who he's been described as being, the creator of all things in the universe, etc, etc. Do you HONESTLY think that you ought to be using terms like "miffy" to describe Him?

So your point, from the very title of the original post in this thread, has been mockery of religion. You think it's FUNNY. You made it very clear that you (1) don't believe God is real (which is your right) and that (2) you think it's cool to make fun of people who DO believe this (which is NOT your right).

Don't act so surprised that the reaction to your original post hasn't been all "grins and giggles."

I'll never cease to be amazed at how many... "less than briliant?"... people decide to brag to their "smart friends" about how stupid those religious types are, only to be shocked and dismayed to discover that the people they were bragging to, who are typically much smarter than the braggart himself, often turn out to be among those the "would be smart-guy" is attempting to mock.

For the record, I'm a Christian myself. And yes, you were mocking me and my beliefs. Do you presume to think that I'm "stoopid?" Just wondering...

 

[Unicron]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

I've been holding this open, and I really don't want to close it. But I also don't want this to become a TNZ thread, and I can't move it because we don't move stuff there anymore.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Cary L. Brown said:

The Borg Queen said:Well the easiest way to avoid any problems with the Universal Translator would be to convert to a non-Christian religion.

Problem solved.

Naturally, because non-Christian religions are uniformly so much more "tolerant," right? For that matter, the "atheist religion" is most tolerant of all... just look at how little bloodshed and how few "purges" have been committed under atheistic regimes (like Stalinist Russia, or Cambodia).

No, because the Christian religion is the one that has the Tower of Babel story, and this thread is about the Universal Translator being at odds with the Tower of Babel.

 

[Argus Skyhawk]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

The Borg Queen said:No, because the Christian religion is the one that has the Tower of Babel story, and this thread is about the Universal Translator being at odds with the Tower of Babel.

The Tower of Babel story is also part of the Jewish religion, and probably the Muslim religion too.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Argus Skyhawk said:

The Borg Queen said:No, because the Christian religion is the one that has the Tower of Babel story, and this thread is about the Universal Translator being at odds with the Tower of Babel.

The Tower of Babel story is also part of the Jewish religion, and probably the Muslim religion too.

Absolutely correct. Glad to see that there's someone else here who knows a little bit about this stuff.

Judaism and Islam have two splits, really... one being at the time of Abraham, the other being around the time that Mohammed was about 23 or 24 (making him "middle aged" for that time in history). The story of the one brother "stealing" the other brother's birthright is actually at the core of much of the animosity between practitioners of Islam and Judaism. The anger seeding from that has been nurtured throughout history, and when Islam was created by Mohammad (or, if you believe in the literal Koran, when the Archangel Gabriel revealed to Mohammad that he was to be the Prophet), this was not originally part of Islam (Mohammad claimed that he was simply continuing, and fulfilling, both Christianity and Judaism). It wasn't until the ruling counsel of the city of Mecca drove Mohammed out and forced him to flee for his life to Medina that the virulent anti-jew and anti-Christian (and anti-Babylonian polytheism, too... think Arabian Nights... but that religion was totally wiped out by Mohammed and his followers). The reason he was harsher in his words re: Judaism than re: Christianity or any of the other "competing" religions was that the nomadic people he was recruiting his army from still held a massive grudge about the "stolen birthright" thing.

So, go back to Abraham, and all three of the "main" religions on earth (excepting, of course, Atheism which I continue to hold meets all the critical requirements of the definition of a religion!) sprout from a common history.

Obviously, there are many other unrelated religions... Taoism, the Hindu faith, several still-existing polytheistic or "nature-worshipping" belief systems... and that's not even considering religions made up on a bet by L. Ron Hubbard or his pals.

 

[Griffworks]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

And these last several posts just go to illustrate that the thread really has nothing whatsoever to do with Trek Tech and more to do with Religion.

And J- .... Er. "Forbin"... (don't want you getting reminding us again that wordforge.net BAN's folks for mentioning real names ) I'm quite secure w/my thoughts on religion, as well as Treknology. This thread, tho, has very little to do w/the subject of this sub-forum. :thumbsup:

 

[Unicron]

Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

^ Agreed. This really seems to be more about the religion than the tech, so I'm going to close this. Guy Gardnener, feel free to restart this in TNZ as it's probably better suited there. Any questions/comments, PM me.