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Story telling styles: Beowulf vs Dot Cotton

RevdKathy

Grumpy old bear
Moderator
I want to compare the story-styles in modern Who. This is a reflection about story-telling styles. It's a reflection, not really meant as a 'criticism' of one style or another. And it's about styles, not content. Though I think I do want to ask the question whether such a complete change in style is a good idea for an audience accustomed to one approach.

First up, RTD's style. It's what you might call “Classical”. It has touches of epic, certainly elements of romance (almost bordering on Mills and Boon) and reasonable characterisations. What makes it classical for me is the story shape. RTD's stories have a beginning, a middle and an end. And oh, what an End! RTD is big on ends. He almost gets carried away in trying to create the Big Bang Complete Ending, drawing in everything that's gone before, tying it up with a bow.

And mostly, RTD's ending are happy endings. He goes over the top in his desperate need to make the resolution an ending where they all lived happily ever after (Everybody Lives!) – perhaps to the discomfort of his audience when he does strange things like create a duplicate character so his romantic interest can get her man. But even his unhappy endings (such as Donna's story) have a sense of rightness, completion, resolution. At the end of an RTD story, be it an episode, two-parter or whole series there's that 'ahh' of completion that you get as the curtain falls at the end of a Shakespeare play or Greek tragedy, or as you turn the last page on a great novel.


Now, we turn to Moffat's story telling. It's different. Moffat's style is relatively modern, the story that never ends. You answer one question and two more pop up. You solve one crisis and there's another drama down the road. It's a good style, that has kept certain TV shows on air for decades. It is, arguably, more true to life, where one person is replaced by another, where life and death go on in unending circle, where just when you think you've got the shot lined up someone moves the goal posts. There are no happily ever afters – you no sooner kiss your handsome prince than you discover he's a toad.

And plenty of people have committed to shows that tell a never-ending story. They are quite happy to tune in 3 times a week knowing that while individual plot-lines may achieve resolution, the story as a whole will go on. Scheherezade leaves us on a cliff hanger for 1001 nights to ensure that we will tune in again next week. Actors open their scripts with impatience to see who 'gets' the cliff-hanger moment in each episode (known in Eastenders, for example as “Getting the douff douffs” named for the percussion that starts the closing credits.)


My question is not one of which style is 'better'. Both have their merits. Both certainly have their place and their fans. But I confess to wondering whether the puppeteers behind the scene at the BBC have made a wise choice in switching from someone so completely committed to one style to someone utterly sold on the other. After several years of RTD's Beginnings, Middles and Oh-So-Huge-Endings, it somehow doesn't sit quite so comfortably to be in a world where we no sooner find the answer to one problem than there's 2 more to address. It feels just a little as if they're playing to the wrong audience. So Scheherezade comes across as just a little paranoid, afraid of being executed if she allows the story to be resolved, yet risking that we'll get bored waiting for the sense of an 'ending' and stop listening. There's no expected “ahh” of completion, of it all making sense, of emotional pay-off.

Don't get me wrong. If Doctor Who had been a 'never-ending story' from its revival, I'm sure it would have been fine and good. Certainly Stephen Moffat has demonstrated tremendous ability in the style. My concern is something about the existing audience and the new audience. Like a church which suddenly abandons its hymnbook and pipe organ in favour of modern choruses and a praise band, only to find the people they are trying to attract don't notice while the regular congregation goes elsewhere. Somehow, I'm not sure there's a Coronation Street in Gallifrey town centre.

Discuss!
 
Admittedly, it was a risk, but, it seems to have gone over just fine. Viewership may be down, but, that can be tracked to viewership in general going down.

The show has maintained or increased it's percent share, and that's all that can be expected, you can't expect a show to meet the same viewership numbers, if the audience in general has decreased, all you can expect, is that of the available eyes viewing TV, you hold onto or increase the percentage of them.

With 20 episodes (And the Christmas Special, which BTW, I believe A Christmas Carol is widely accepted as the best Christmas Special yet for NuWho) under Moffat's belt as Showrunner, the show hasn't lost any audience share, so, I think the audience has definitely accepted the storytelling format change.
 
I don't think your comparison completely holds up if I'm honest. We just haven't got to the end of Moffat's story yet. You talk about Rose and happy endings but it took till the end of the 4th series before she got her Tennant shaped sex doll, and if anything the ongoing Rose story dominated the whole of RTD's tenure. This is a man who gave us endings then decided he didn't like that ending so he'd redo it. Rose was trapped forever, except she wasn't, seperated from the man she loves, except she wasn't. Elton lost the woman he loved, except he didn't she was...er...just turned into a paving slab. Donna was robbed of happiness, except she wasn't (In the RTD world money equals happiness obviously)

Characters leaving in a blaze of glory then making grand returns sounds pretty soap operay to me?

Personally I think RTD was exceptionally good at starts and middles, but he wasn't great at endings.

I fully expect Amy and Rory to get their own happy ending, it just might not be tied up in an RTD shaped bow.

I'm not saying their aren't differences in the way the stories are told, RTD was simpler, but at times he did simple very, very well, whereas at times Moffat does complicated very badly, but I don't think they're as disimilar as you think, and I don't think you can really judge their tenures until Moffat's run ends.
 
^That sounds sarkier than I meant it to, sorry :(

Not at all. :) I invited debate.

I like your point about RTD writing an ending for someone, and then deciding he can do a better one so bringing them back to write it again. That's very true. To be honest, I think it was only his departure as show runner that prevented Donna returning for Yet Another Ending. Because I suspect her ending wasn't happy enough.

But I think the point stands: from ep one, RTD was telling stories for the purpose of resolving them. The point of the story is a big ending. Whether they were necessarily good endings all the time is another matter. That was his aim in telling the story.

Moffat's aim is not to resolve, to spin the story on for another 1001 nights. To explain the bit you thought you needed to know and in the process get you hooked into a different question altogether. It's a completely different story style. And I think that is a comparison I can make after a season and a half of watching. Maybe he'll suddely tie up all the ends and answer all the questions if he decides to retire, or the BBC appoint someone else. But I think he's hoping to stave off that day with more unanswered questions.

It's not a better or worse style. Just a very different one.
 
And mostly, RTD's ending are happy endings. He goes over the top in his desperate need to make the resolution an ending where they all lived happily ever after (Everybody Lives!) – perhaps to the discomfort of his audience when he does strange things like create a duplicate character so his romantic interest can get her man. But even his unhappy endings (such as Donna's story) have a sense of rightness, completion, resolution. At the end of an RTD story, be it an episode, two-parter or whole series there's that 'ahh' of completion that you get as the curtain falls at the end of a Shakespeare play or Greek tragedy, or as you turn the last page on a great novel.

"Everybody Lives!" is Steven Moffat, though. All of Davies's finales have the Doctor winning, yes, but always at a cost: 1) the Doctor regenerates 2) Rose is trapped "forever" 3) Martha's family is tortured for a year, Martha leaves, and the Master dies 4) Donna loses her memory 4.5) the Doctor regenerates. The triumph against the bad guy of the week is always balanced against some kind of personal cost for both Doctor and companion.

On the other hand, Moffat often has ridiculously happy endings that come out of nowhere: "The Doctor Dances" (though I love it, it's all nonsense technogubbins), "Blink" (um, we're in love for some reason even though the story wasn't even about that), "Forest of the Dead" (EVERYBODY LIVES... even though a lot of people died actually). I think the worst offender is "The Big Bang," where a bunch of big dramatic noisy things happen, yet no one pays any sort of cost at all. In fact, Amy's life actually gets better.
 
I was waiting for someone to pick me up on the fact that "Everybody lives!" is a Moffat line. ;)

Again, the point that RTD's endings are 'happy-endings-at-a-price' (including Donna's story, if you will) is valid. But that's part of why they are satisfying endings, in some way. I'm not sure you can cite the Moffat stories when they were so much part of the RTD era, since he was constrained by RTD's overall vision, but to look at the ones you list:

The Doctor Dances introduces a new character, who umpteen episodes and his own spin-off later still has secrets we know nothing of, including those lost 2 years.

Blink probably should have been left as a complete, stand-alone ep, because it's beautiful as such. But no, the Angels came back, in a completely bowdlerised form. (I won't mention the question of where The Doctor and Martha were going at the end of the show)

Forest of the Dead introduced another character with more questions than answers. Personally, I'd have loved it if River had stayed a mystery indefinitely with just that one appearance - would have been much more fun. But the whole "River" sequence and story begins there, with a whole basinful of stories.

The Big Bang ought to have been the resolution to the 'crack' story, and wasn't, and instead introduced a concept of a whole bunch of former enemies collaborating in an previously unknown (and still to be explained) alliance against the Doctor.

In each case, the story stops, but we are left with a heap of questions which get threaded on into future stories. There's no real sense of "Oh, that all makes sense". Because even if one thing does, three more don't.
 
I can see the point about the happy endings at a price of RTD vs the just happy endings of Moffat, but really is the end of the Library 2 parter that different from say Rose being sperated from the Doctor? River doesn't die, but she's still cut off from the man she loves forever, that really isn't much different. And really a lot of those endings were forced on RTD, Eccleston chose to leave so the Doctor had to regenerate, same with Billie Piper, and RTD had written himself into a corner with Rose, he'd made her so much the love of the Doctor's life that there was only two ways the tale could end; either they rode off into the sunset together, or else they were seperated forcibly, and the latter was the only option (until he decided he could have his cake and eat it with 10.5, although kudos the guy knows it wasn't a great call).

I'm not trying to deny they're different, RTD went for more standalone stories with a very loose story winding through them (Remember Harold Saxon's namechcked in Love and Monsters!), whilst Moffat's are more interlinked, and as overly simplistic as I thought Russell was at times, I'm starting to think Moffat is overdoing things at times as well.

For me (and I keep going on about this, sorry) the biggest difference is that RTD's the PT Barnum showman, hoping the flashing lights and loud music distracts from the story's failings, whilst Moffat is the stage magician, using smoke and mirrors to accomplish the same thing.

I'd still love to have one RTD ep a year the way we used to have one Moffat tale (Hell I'd have loved to have seen RTD's Curse of the Black Spot!)

I do hope most of the Amy/River/Rory stuff is finalised this year though.
 
I can see the point about the happy endings at a price of RTD vs the just happy endings of Moffat, but really is the end of the Library 2 parter that different from say Rose being sperated from the Doctor? River doesn't die, but she's still cut off from the man she loves forever, that really isn't much different. And really a lot of those endings were forced on RTD, Eccleston chose to leave so the Doctor had to regenerate, same with Billie Piper, and RTD had written himself into a corner with Rose, he'd made her so much the love of the Doctor's life that there was only two ways the tale could end; either they rode off into the sunset together, or else they were seperated forcibly, and the latter was the only option (until he decided he could have his cake and eat it with 10.5, although kudos the guy knows it wasn't a great call).

I think in those cases the difference is more a matter of tone-- "Doomsday" plays it for tears, whereas in "Forest of the Dead" it's almost triumphal. (To be fair, Donna loses her bf, but then again Moffat uses it for a cheap joke about Donna talking too much.)

I take your point about the forced loss, but no one forced any cast departures at the end of seasons 3 or 4.

in some way. I'm not sure you can cite the Moffat stories when they were so much part of the RTD era, since he was constrained by RTD's overall vision, but to look at the ones you list:
Moffat had a pretty free hand with his scripts. In fact, when Moffat turned in "The Doctor Dances" he made a comment about how Davies always killed off all his incidental characters, which is why he didn't do it. That's why Davies elected to not kill off the New Humans at the end of "New Earth"-- to prove he could do it too! (Moffat doesn't honest-to-goodness kill someone off until "The Eleventh Hour," I think, and even then it's mostly just implied.)
 
Killing characters is a funny thing, it can get a bit unbeliveable when no one dies, but I always thought Everybody lives! Was a reaction against decades of Who where everyone died (See Fang Rock for further info :lol:) and killing people for the sake of it can be just as annoying (Oscar getting stabbed in the Two Doctors for exemple). I don't disagree though, Moffat's always been a bit too clever at not killing people, though when he does it he does it very well, Father Octavian for example, not to mention several characters in A Good Man Goes to War.

Also taking Moffat's wider work into account he bumps of loads of people in Jekyll!

I'm not sure whether the end of 3 and 4 were related to departures. I've always felt Freema had a two year deal, and that they just deicded she wasn't up to being the companion full time--her appearences in S4 and Torchwood smacked on contractual obligations to me.

That said I do think what happened to River smacked too much of 'everybody lives!' again, and its become an overused trope.
 
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