Stopping the Travelling Supporter Problem

[Hermiod]

(I don't want to take up the entire Football thread with this one discussion)

Again, last week we saw thousands of Rangers supporters travel to Manchester without tickets for the match. The Mancunian authorities tried to accomodate them by laying on big screens etc for the game, but it's alleged that the failure of one of these screens lead to the disgraceful scenes in the city that happened later that night.

Last season's Champions League final in Athens was similarly marred by the behaviour of the Liverpool supporters outside the stadium. The ticket = visa issue may help reduce this problem this year, but we may still see numerous Chelsea and Manchester United supporters turning up without tickets.

And I suspect Swiss and Austrian authorities will be pleased that England did not qualify for Euro 2008 and thus there will not be thousands of ticketless fans turning up.

How do we stop this ? How do we stop thousands of fans showing up for games they don't have tickets to ?

To be honest, I am in favour of UEFA and FIFA taking strong action against the clubs. If one club turns up with thousands of ticketless fans, they should forfeit the game.

 

[Roger Wilco]

To be honest, I am in favour of UEFA and FIFA taking strong action against the clubs. If one club turns up with thousands of ticketless fans, they should forfeit the game.

I am in favour of the football-governing bodies to leave the supporters the fuck alone and stop infringing their freedom everywhere they go. Football fans are free citizens and not collectively criminal. If a Glaswegian wants to travel to Manchester because the club he supports plays a game there and he wants enjoy the pre- and post-game atmosphere or just have a good time with likeminded people - who has a right to stop him?? Certainly NOT the UEFA, and equally certainly not the football clubs! Seriously, get some perspective, there are still supposed to be some civil liberties in Europe.

I am sick and tired of football fans getting criminalised (almost) everywhere they go, regardless of whether or not there are any "riots". Especially in the Europan Cup I've been to some wonderful away matches, but mostly it's getting worse and worse. And it's not the supporters' fault.

And regarding the Euro 2008, the authorities expect hundreds of thousands of supporters without tickets to come here (especially in Vienna, where I'm living). The english supporters have a bad reputation, but in my experience that is largely undeserved, and as far as I'm concerned anyone who wants to come is welcome here. Can't be worse than the legions of japanese tourists who crowd the city every summer anyway.

 

[Hermiod]

Normally I would agree, but there have been too many incidents in the last few years. It was almost inevitable that there was going to be trouble at the UEFA Cup final.

You can't suggest that tens of thousands of Glasweigans just happened to be holidaying in Manchester on the day of the UEFA Cup final. Surely those supporters could have held an event with big screens in Glasgow ? Maybe inside Rangers' own stadium ? Arsenal do this at the Emirates for all Champions League games.

The UEFA Cup final was not, of course, the worst case. The worst was the mess Liverpool's "supporters" made out of the Champions League final - stealing tickets ? Turning up with fakes ?

 

[Deleted 2]

The thread title made me think it was going to be some fun mathematical problem about the most efficient way for a group of supporters to travel to differing cities..

Seriously, I'm not a football fan at all, but I live in the very center of Eindhoven, which is home of a major-ish football club, and I have more first-hand experience with events like these than I care for.

In my experience, the local fans are far, far, worse than the foreign ones. Even the celebration of a 'good' match seems to leave an intense amount of debris; smashed bus stops, bicycles wrung into metal pretzels, individuals urinating, vomiting and yes, defecating on your doorstop... it's very hard not to take a dim view of these 'people'.

Several times I've been intimidated on the street by angry groups of fans who seemed to take offense at me not wearing a football jersey. All in all it's an almost complete--though temporary--breakdown of social order, and these are the events that the authorities are willing to deem a success because, well, no teargas had to be used.

I'm sure these things are done by a minority of fans, but it's not like the other fans are calling these people on their behaviour. And the football clubs--at least here--feel completely comfortable in placing all the costs of these events on the shoulders of the community. They don't pay for damage caused, they don't pay for cleanup, they don't pay for the extra police presence.

I don't feel any charity towards football clubs or their fans. The way things done now is wrong, it needs to stop, and I don't give a flying fuck if that means those poor football supporters have to stay home and watch the match on tv.

 

[Roger Wilco]

You can't suggest that tens of thousands of Glasweigans just happened to be holidaying in Manchester on the day of the UEFA Cup final. Surely those supporters could have held an event with big screens in Glasgow ? Maybe inside Rangers' own stadium ? Arsenal do this at the Emirates for all Champions League games.

Of course the Rangers fans weren't in Manchester by coincidence, maybe they thought they could buy tickets on the black market, or just enjoy the atmosphere. But that's something that shouldn't be prohibited (unless there's a damn good reason, like maybe for people who've already been convicted of violent crimes in connection with football games). Restrictions on free travel are a significant violation of one's personal freedom that should not be done lightly and only on a individual basis (=/= collectively) in a free society. It's the police's job to keep order in the city then, but not preemptively.

In my experience, the local fans are far, far, worse than the foreign ones.

Do you mean PSV supporters, or supporters of other clubs from the Netherlands?

I'm sure these things are done by a minority of fans, but it's not like the other fans are calling these people on their behaviour. And the football clubs--at least here--feel completely comfortable in placing all the costs of these events on the shoulders of the community. They don't pay for damage caused, they don't pay for cleanup, they don't pay for the extra police presence.

I don't feel any charity towards football clubs or their fans. The way things done now is wrong, it needs to stop, and I don't give a flying fuck if that means those poor football supporters have to stay home and watch the match on tv.

Charity? Why do you hate freedom?
And at least here in Austria, the football clubs pay for the police's overtime.

 

[Deleted 2]

In my experience, the local fans are far, far, worse than the foreign ones.

Do you mean PSV supporters, or supporters of other clubs from the Netherlands?

PSV fans are the absolute worst, at least here. Violence and damage caused by foreign clubs--as far as I've seen it--has been rather limited. Perhaps they're used to being afraid of their police, whereas the Dutch supporters know what they can get away with without provoking charges.

I don't feel any charity towards football clubs or their fans.

Charity? Why do you hate freedom?

I like freedom. Particularly my own freedom to walk around in my own neighbourhood unassaulted, and my own freedom not to have my property (well, rental property) violated. These people are perfectly housebroken in their own homes and at the workplace, so if they behave like incontinent pigs in large groups, I see no problem in treating them as such.

I live in the center of town; groups of drunk people singing, shouting and trying to destroy things is something I see every evening. Heroin junkies and dealers I see every day. I'm a big guy, in my mid-twenties, and I don't feel threatened very quickly. But if *I'm* afraid to leave the house when the abovementioned incontinent pigs are on the loose, I think it's fair to assume that other people are afraid as well.

And at least here in Austria, the football clubs pay for the police's overtime.

Doesn't happen in the Netherlands, unfortunately.

 

[Hermiod]

Of course the Rangers fans weren't in Manchester by coincidence, maybe they thought they could buy tickets on the black market, or just enjoy the atmosphere. But that's something that shouldn't be prohibited (unless there's a damn good reason, like maybe for people who've already been convicted of violent crimes in connection with football games). Restrictions on free travel are a significant violation of one's personal freedom that should not be done lightly and only on a individual basis (=/= collectively) in a free society. It's the police's job to keep order in the city then, but not preemptively.

They can travel anywhere they want to, but if they don't behave themselves then their team automatically loses.

As much as I am one myself, football fans have been given too much benefit of the doubt.

 

[The Lady Eve]

I thought this thread was going to be about uncomfortable jockstraps.

 

[Hermiod]

I thought this thread was going to be about uncomfortable jockstraps.

Which is why, I assume, you clicked on it.

 

[The Lady Eve]

^ I clicked it purely for the joy of learning.

 

[the 4th hanson bro]

let me assure you, there's nothing joyful in an uncomfortable jockstrap

I don't know why, but BSG comes to mind "this has happened before, it will happen again". It seems like European, but especially English, football and hooliganism are well linked.

Short of playing the games in a secret location without fans present but only able to view the games in their own homes or in groups of less than 5, what can really be done about it?

 

[Hermiod]

^As I said, kicking teams who bring thousands of ticketless fans along out of tournaments should do it.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Why should the clubs be blamed? They can keep people out of the stadiums, but there's nothing they can do to stop people from travelling around.

 

[Hermiod]

The clubs are responsible for selling tickets to their supporters. They should be taking measures to ensure that genuine supporters are in receipt of those tickets and that they are not transferred.

Allowing, and even encouraging, thousands of ticketless fans to travel prevents real supporters who travel to the arse end of nowhere to watch their team lose out too.

 

[SmoothieX]

I thought this thread was going to be about uncomfortable jockstraps.

I kinda did too. Someone asking for advice about how to keep the strap from riding up your butt.

I don't get the argument of the original poster here. What's wrong about taking a road trip to follow your team? Or tickets being sold to fans of an opposing team who's playing at your stadium?

I'm just not sure what your angle here is?

 

[Hermiod]

I thought this thread was going to be about uncomfortable jockstraps.

I kinda did too. Someone asking for advice about how to keep the strap from riding up your butt.

I don't get the argument of the original poster here. What's wrong about taking a road trip to follow your team? Or tickets being sold to fans of an opposing team who's playing at your stadium?

I'm just not sure what your angle here is?

I'll try to explain.

The UEFA Cup final between Glasgow Rangers and Zenit St. Petersburg was held in Manchester last week. Tens of thousands of Rangers fans who did not have tickets to the match descended upon Manchester, thanks largely to the short trip. It was even joked that the Protestant side of Glasgow was emptied out.

The authorities in Manchester laid on several giant screens for the ticketless fans to watch the match. One of these screens failed and it is believed to have led to the disgraceful rioting by Rangers supporters throughout Manchester that evening.

Last year's UEFA Champions League final in Athens was marred by the fact that, again, thousands of ticketless Liverpool supporters arrived in Athens. Even some fans with tickets were denied admission because the stadium authorities had allowed fans with fake tickets or no tickets at all through open barriers. In the scenes that followed, child supporters even had their genuine tickets stolen from them.

Thousands of England fans also descended upon Germany during the World Cup in 2006. People were buying black market tickets for thousands of pounds around the venues where England were playing.

I don't know if Americans can appreciate this side of it. Every football stadium has a section for traveling fans, that's not the problem. There's nothing wrong with traveling to support your team - if you have a ticket.

Arsenal, for instance, operate a Travel Club where you build up points by going to matches. The fans who go to the less glamourous matches are therefore more likely to get to go to the big matches because tickets are offered to the people with the most points first.

Ticket schemes like this are rendered worthless, however, when people who have not been to see Arsenal play at Derby County or Middlesbrough turn up at the big matches with £1,000 in their pocket. It cuts the real fans out of football.

Again, I don't know if Americans appreciate how traveling support works in Football, but I will explain if you want.

 

[the 4th hanson bro]

I think I get it, but I don't understand how the club is going to keep its non-ticketed fans or fans hoping to score tickets from other sources once in town.

If a person is going to an away game sans ticket looking to cause trouble, will it matter if the team is forced to forfeit? I suspect not.

Isn't there also an element not associated with fandom of the club that uses travelling fans or the club as a cover or excuse to further their violent agenda? I remember reading that years ago, but could be mistaken.

Where do you set the floor? If 5 fans show up ticketless to an away match, does the team forfeit? Is it 1,000? Or only if acts of significant violence occur, however one defines significant?

It seems to me to be the first step in holding athletic contests in a sealed stadium, devoid of fans with fans only being able to participate on TV and in groups of less than 10; and really what's the excitement in that? both for the players and fans.

 

[Hitman]

I think what happens now is all that can be done, and is more then enough. If some of the supporters outside the stadium or in the city where the game is played, start acting up, that's a public safety problem and so falls under the scope of the police.

 

[GMac]

What made matters worse on this occasion was the decision to allow all day drinking by the hordes that descended on the city. There are far too many idiots these days who get drunk at the drop of the hat and cause trouble. That's a social problem that has to be addressed in addition to stopping large quantities of ticket-less supporters from overrunning a venue in the same manner as happened last Wednesday. I think the Russians have the right idea for the Champions League final - a strict booze ban prior to the game and a police force who show no mercy to drunken troublemakers. I'll bet there's none of the bother in Moscow that there was in Manchester.....

GM

 

[the 4th hanson bro]

I think the Russians have the right idea for the Champions League final - a strict booze ban prior to the game and a police force who show no mercy to drunken troublemakers. I'll bet there's none of the bother in Moscow that there was in Manchester.....

I was in Moscow a while back and there was a protest of some sort on the grounds of the White House. Our hotel was across the street from the protest and we could see the police trucks and reserve officers they had.

I swear the police outnumbered the protesters 2:1