Stephen Fry on DW and the state of television

[Cutter John]

Hopefully this is Doctor Who related enough to belong here.

He makes some good points about the quality of tv these days.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/jun/16/stephen-fry-doctor-who

 

[Captain Pike]

He gave a wonderful speech not so long ago at the BBC TV centre (IIRC) in which he talked about the rich legacy of BBC radio and television, iwhere he specifically talks about watching the first episode of doctor who as a boy, as well as things like Blue Peter, the BBC's history of fine dramas, comedy, superb documentaries etc.

It's on youtube somewhere..

 

[Hermiod]

I kind of agree with him.

I don't mean to bash Doctor Who, but even though I'm enjoying the current season a lot more than previous seasons since the revamp, it still all feels a little bit childish.

Of course, the show should remain family friendly. Doctor Who isn't compatible with a Battlestar Galactica style reimagining. It is, however, one of the BBC's flagship shows right now. I can't imagine that anything except maybe Top Gear makes as much money for them internationally, and certainly not any other drama.

I suspect a lot of people will criticise Fry simply because he dared to speak against Doctor Who, but I believe he genuinely cares about the quality of the BBC's output.

 

[Jax]

I think Doctor Who walks a very fine line but keeps the balance of kid stuff/Adult stuff quite well but even then I would say Doc Who is for people under 30 more than over 30 and the same can be said for Doctor Who back in the 60's and 70's...the problem is your fanbase grows up.

I feel hes correct about the rest of TV, there is not enough hard hitting drama like Lom, Ashes to Ashes, Spooks etc because there are too many rules governing TV.

 

[Captain Shaw]

Can't believe a person can't talk on the phone in the car while saving the world.
I hate people who phone and drive but I would let it pass in a TV show about spy's.

 

[Cutter John]

I kind of agree with him.

I don't mean to bash Doctor Who, but even though I'm enjoying the current season a lot more than previous seasons since the revamp, it still all feels a little bit childish.

I don't think he's bashing Who so much as he's saying 'If the BBC can make kids shows this good, than why aren't they making adult programs that blow our minds and knock us back off our seats from sheer brilliance?'

 

[Starkers]

Does Stephen Fry watch telly? I mean surely the BBC has lots of hard hitting dramas? Waking the Dead, Spooks, Silent Witness, Luthor just to rattle off a few. Perhaps he means hard hitting like Bones?

And I'm sorry but I don't see Who as a childrens' program. It's family entertainment made for everyone, Sarah Jane is childrens' telly!

Ask me the problem with the BBC is too many programs following some celebrity driving across American ina taxi

 

[StCoop]

And I'm sorry but I don't see Who as a childrens' program. It's family entertainment made for everyone, Sarah Jane is childrens' telly!

Well, Moffat disagrees with you as he regularly calls it a children's show (albeit one that adults can enjoy as well).

***

Interviewer: We've been debating on our site endlessly: Is Doctor Who a kids' program?
Moffat: Yes. Debate over. It's good to fix those things quickly.

http://io9.com/5028464/exclusive-interview-with-doctor-whos-steven-moffat

 

[Captain Pike]

Back in the 70's and 80's the BBC put out a number of what was referred to as 'landmark' documentaries. The Ascent of Man comes to mind, as well as Life on Earth. Carl Sagan's Cosmos was in part a response to these type of doccos from across the pond. Most were mammoth 10, 12 or 13 parters and were extremely comprehensive, but they didn't just educate, they really stirred the soul. They provoked thought, conversation, learning and even whole careers.

While I still see many fine doccos, you just never see anything quite so spectacular these days. Maybe the scale is too large for our modern lifestyles, but I think it's a shame these kind of shows are no more.

 

[Hermiod]

I kind of agree with him.

I don't mean to bash Doctor Who, but even though I'm enjoying the current season a lot more than previous seasons since the revamp, it still all feels a little bit childish.

I don't think he's bashing Who so much as he's saying 'If the BBC can make kids shows this good, than why aren't they making adult programs that blow our minds and knock us back off our seats from sheer brilliance?'

I didn't think he was bashing Doctor Who either. I only said that I didn't mean to bash the show myself because, honestly, I've found that people don't react well to criticism of this show on here and I didn't want to start an argument.

 

[StCoop]

I didn't think he was bashing Doctor Who either. I only said that I didn't mean to bash the show myself because, honestly, I've found that people don't react well to criticism of this show on here and I didn't want to start an argument.

The guy has a Dalek in his living room and regularly Tweets about how much he's enjoyed an episode.

There are just some insecure people out there who can't handle the fact that they enjoy watching a show made largely for kids.

 

[Starkers]

Oh fuck off

 

[StCoop]

Oh fuck off

Point proved.

Here's some more Moffat for you:

More from Moffat:

Doctor Who is absolutely a childrens show in terms of its strictures, limits and imperatives. All the talk at meetings is about what the eight-year-olds will think. Cos igniting the imaginations of eight-year-olds is pretty much - no, is EXACTLY - the mission statement.

A side benefit, of course, is that adults are in fact eight-year-olds with increased body-mass and frowning. So of course, THEY'LL watch! Of course they will. Get it right for the eight-year-olds and the adults will follow - nothing is more certain.

It's like - no really, it is - when you go into a restaurant, and you're looking at the menu, and you're being all adult, and you're thinking, ooh, maybe lettuce soup, or a carrot rissotto, or perhaps just a glass of water and slap from the Maitre D ... and your eye drifts (oh, how it drifts) to the children's menu!

Sausage and mash! Burger and fries!! Actual size chocolate pigs!!!

Doctor Who is the children's menu. Like you're ever gonna grow out of that.

PS. There will be people who argue the children's menu is actually the adults menu. Let them. They're not going to be around for long.

 

[Hermiod]

There are just some insecure people out there who can't handle the fact that they enjoy watching a show made largely for kids.

Up until last year, I spent £20-30 a week on comic books. I think I can handle watching something that's, supposedly, meant for kids.

I'm not going to criticise Doctor Who for being family friendly. There's nothing wrong with that, but sometimes that means that a show isn't going to be able to push the envelope the way a show made entirely for adults can.

 

[Ubik]

There's no debate - of course Doctor Who is childish. And sometimes that makes it great fun, and sometimes, on the other hand, it frustrates me that it refuses to really go for it, and do something complex, ambiguous, and challenging. It doesn't have to be BSG-level of adult/dark - just going as adult as Star Trek TNG or DS9 wouldn't hurt so much. Kids can handle it. Have some truly adult themes. The classic show did it (think Genesis of the Daleks, Caves of Androzani, etc...) The show can easily withstand those sorts of morally grey, philosophically challenging issues. The new season in particular has been a bit too childish for my liking.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I'm a radio host and in my experience, most people don't want anything "surprising, savoury, sharp, unusual, cosmopolitan, alien, challenging, complex, ambiguous, possibly even slightly disturbing and wrong". What they usually want and actively ask for is something familiar, conventional, cute, predictable, mild, nostalgic, straightforward and reassuring.

What Fry should have said is that despite the fact that most people don't want to be surprised or challenged, journalists and entertainers should do their best to surprise and challenge them anyway, in the off-chance that it might open some heretofore closed doors inside them.

Also, having been born in England in the 1950's, I think that Stephen Fry can't possibly comprehend how weird Doctor Who really is.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

The show can easily withstand those sorts of morally grey, philosophically challenging issues. The new season in particular has been a bit too childish for my liking.

There has been a show about clinical depression and the loneliness of the unappreciated artist.

 

[StCoop]

There's no debate - of course Doctor Who is childish. And sometimes that makes it great fun, and sometimes, on the other hand, it frustrates me that it refuses to really go for it, and do something complex, ambiguous, and challenging. It doesn't have to be BSG-level of adult/dark - just going as adult as Star Trek TNG or DS9 wouldn't hurt so much. Kids can handle it. Have some truly adult themes. The classic show did it (think Genesis of the Daleks, Caves of Androzani, etc...) The show can easily withstand those sorts of morally grey, philosophically challenging issues.

'Midnight' is the single darkest episode in the series history.

 

[Ubik]

There's no debate - of course Doctor Who is childish. And sometimes that makes it great fun, and sometimes, on the other hand, it frustrates me that it refuses to really go for it, and do something complex, ambiguous, and challenging. It doesn't have to be BSG-level of adult/dark - just going as adult as Star Trek TNG or DS9 wouldn't hurt so much. Kids can handle it. Have some truly adult themes. The classic show did it (think Genesis of the Daleks, Caves of Androzani, etc...) The show can easily withstand those sorts of morally grey, philosophically challenging issues.

'Midnight' is the single darkest episode in the series history.

Well, agreed, it is very dark, and very adult. In fact, in the new show's 5-year run, there were quite a few episodes that I thought dealt with adult themes in a mature and insightful way. I guess my attitude is toward the current season. I loved Moffat's stuff during RTD's reign, indeed because it seemed so dark, but this season has felt very childish to me. Not sure why. It may be a deliberate choice on Moffat's part (which may be likely, considering his, I believe disingenuous, insistence that the show is for 8 year-olds), or it may be just that no adult-themed scripts happened to pop up this season. I hope it's the latter.

 

[Ubik]

The show can easily withstand those sorts of morally grey, philosophically challenging issues. The new season in particular has been a bit too childish for my liking.

There has been a show about clinical depression and the loneliness of the unappreciated artist.

To steal a line from Ebert, it's not what it's about, it's how it's about it. Yes, the episode was "about" clinical depression, but not in any kind of complex way. It was fluffed over, I thought, made very safe and palatable. His depression was charming and eccentric, not at all what it is in real life. A missed opportunity, perhaps. The episode was afraid to make us feel uncomfortable with Van Gogh, because it had its heart set on us liking him and finding him all cuddly and stuff.