Stellar Cartography Confusion

[Photon]

1-Kira said that the Klingons were moving out from Bajoran space into "neutral space" (Way of the Warrior). From looking at different maps of the Fed and Bajor there is no "neutral space"
Was she talking about Fed space, but not w/in anyone's sphere of influence?

2-Dax talking to Sisko about the Romulans letting the Dominion come through their space to attack the Federation. Unless the Doms had many space stations near Romulan territory that'd look like an attack wing would take a long time to reach Fed space. Perhaps the maps I've perused weren't quite right or perhaps Dax mispoke.

3-One stellar map painted some Kremin territory actually venturing into the Gamma Quad, any thoughts? That would be an interesting showdown.

 

[Hofner]

The Bajoran system was supposed to be outside of Federation territory so I'm sorry but if a map shows it's in Fed space it's wrong. Unless it's supposed to reflect the region after Bajor joined the Federation.

Robert

 

[WillCAD]

Stellar Cartography?! I thought that Deck Eleven!

 

[iamtosk]

Here is a map of the local galaxy.

It shows a big chunk of space around bajor that doesn't appear to be claimed. I suppose the Klingons could have been heading there. <shrug>

 

[Timo]

1. Indeed, I'm not aware of any map that would show Bajoran space bordering on any other major "empire" save for the Cardassian Union. All dialogue references suggest that Bajor is far from UFP territory and Starfleet assets; probably the nearest Federation presence is Starbase 375, quite a distance away by the few onscreen maps.

2. The Star Trek Star Charts try to portray a relatively compact Federation, one where such "Hail Mary" maneuver would indeed be plausible. They are also based on onscreen maps (reprinted on pp. 48-49), sort of. Your lightyearage may vary, of course.

3. The Krenim empire kept changing size and shape throughout "Year of Hell"; the Star Charts assume that the final iteration of the empire was a relatively puny affair, just a few dozen lightyears across. But these guys really appeared impressive at their temporally manipulated height. Perhaps even the Dominion might have a reason to fear that version of them?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[toughlittleship]

The Cardassians and Romulans seem to share a border or be relatively near each other though. In Birthright, Shrek says Carraya isn't that far from DS9.

 

[Timo]

Yeah, that's right, sort of.

Shrek calls Carraya three different things: "remote", "not far from here", and "on the edge of Romulan space". Provided all three are true, the place is probably close to Bajor, far away from Khitomer and the Klingon Empire, and perhaps somewhat outside official Romulan space. The latter would be necessary to give it the considerable autonomy it seems to enjoy, and to allow Shrek and Worf to slip in unnoticed.

Also, Carraya gives name to a whole sector; by the Tech Manual and Star Charts nomenclature, that'd be a 20x20x20 ly cube. So probably not a "shared border" as such, but more like a case of Cardassian and Romulan space being separated by a few dozen neutral lightyears. Which, in the Star Charts interpretation of things, is pretty much par for the course...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jono]

I actually went to the effort of comparing the Star Charts map of local space with one of the tactical maps from the dominion war. The tactical map was much smaller but it included Cardassia and Bajor so I resized it so that their positions would compare with the quadrant map.

It made an interesting image as the tactical map when put into scale with the map of alpha/beta quadrants showed that the Dominion sliced the Federation in half in a straight line from Cardassia to the Klingon empire, then went up and drove into Romulan space. It was a very rough comparison.

It also showed a number of odd things. For one the map put Betazed in the middle of the invasion corridor such that it was inevitable that it had to be invaded by the Dominion not the surprise little side trip it was made out to be in the show. Also the map put Ar-5-whatever subspace relay a long why in Fed space and not close or in chin'toka as the show suggested. Also the Ferengi homeworlds don't match up between the two maps.

Obviously I know that this really means nothing. The maps were created independently of each other and were not meant to be compared but it was a fun little exercise. If anyone wants I'll put up the image so people can have a look at how they compared.

 

[Timo]

Actually, the Alpha/Beta map was indeed intended to be a match of the "war map" of pp. 48-49 - as well as a rough match of the old Andrew Probert map first seen in TNG "Conspiracy", a piece that the Art Department seems to have used as a rough reference for their own later work. All three were intended to be cross-compared to some degree, and it really is too bad this could not be catered for in the book. (Properly scaled transparencies, perhaps?)

The oddities you mention are sort of inherent in the source material, though, and should have been better "hidden" in the final product... Ferenginar is seen in the official onscreen maps on the DS9 briefing room wall (usually the left half of the "war map" is shown early on, and the whole deal during the last season only), but the planet has an annoying tendency to move several lightyears between the episodes! Similarly, the AR-558 relay symbol moves around a lot on those onscreen maps.

Personally, I would have interpreted at least the latter so that only the label for AR-558 moves (for Starfleet-approved typographical reasons), while the little moon sits tight in the Chin'toka system. Perhaps the label indicates which pieces of intelligence on the map have been gleaned from AR-558-intercepted information? However, Mandel chose to insert a separate planet/star dot labeled "AR-558" in the maps.

As for Ferenginar, perhaps the natives are good at giving conflicting information on their vulnerable homeworld's exact coordinates?

On Dominion strategy, Betazed wouldn't be a side show as such - it would be an integral part of a cunning plan of cutting the UFP in half in a roundabout move, as opposed to the more obvious plan of moving from Cardassia straight towards Earth. Prior to the invasion of Lwaxana Troi's real estate, Sisko had been waving his hand mainly towards the upper left of the left half of the war map, so a Dominion move towards the lower right would indeed be a nasty surprise to our heroes.

This cunning strategy I actually attribute to the Art Department and its desire to stay consistent with its earlier work - the "war map" is quite suggestive, really. But it could be a figment of my imagination, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WalkinMan]

Rofeta, the map comparison sounds interesting, I would like to see that. If you have the time, thanks in advance!

 

[toughlittleship]

Yeah, I was surprised to see how close the Star Charts put Betazed to the Union. I thought it was closer to Earth, Andor, Vulcan and Alpha Centauri?

 

[Timo]

OTOH, if Betazed were close to them usual suspects, why didn't Kirk know any dark-eyed, human-looking telepath chicks of note?

The very concept of Betazoids would probably scare the bejezus out of Kirk, whose first encounter with telepathy seems to be in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"...

Bolians or Bajorans or Cardassians may have been old news by the time of Kirk's adventures, but Betazoids (at least as UFP members) would probably be more of a TNG phenomenon. Frankly, I'd place Betazed even farther out in the sticks if not for the story requirement of them being on the path of the Dominion juggernaut.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jono]

Here is the link. The maps don't join because I was slack with scanning so they don't match up where they should and the gap represents what I'm missing. It is a also a fair sized image at around 1MB.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s248/jrofeta/Chart02-1.jpg

Betazed is just about in the centre of that conquered area just outside Cardassian space. If you can find the Arachind nebula on the ALpha side of the yellow quadrant border line just about conquered space. You should also see New France and if you travel straight down from the words "New France" you should find Betazed. It is a bit hard to see because of the image quality and the face it is covered by the slightly transparent tactical map.

Its position there doesn't fit with the show. It is dead in line with the Dominion invasion so how it could be a surprise it would get invaded is crazy. This map dates to some time in 2374 after the fall of the planet and the Romulans join the war. Where the dominion is in Romulan territory and you can see their moments towards the front pushing up. On the tactical map there are counter moves from Romulan forces that I erased out as I was only concerned with the where the borders of the front were and not having the whole map there.

 

[Timo]

It is dead in line with the Dominion invasion so how it could be a surprise it would get invaded is crazy.

It depends on where you expect the invasion to be directed, now doesn't it?

The way the map is set up, the Dominion breaks out towards the Klingons, at a weird 45 degree angle to what would be the straightest route to invading the Federation core worlds. I see this as the sort of thing the Germans did with the Maginot line and the Netherlands: going around the heaviest defenses, while not so incidentally driving a wedge between the two main adversaries (like Hitler's invasion wedged between France and Britain by taking the Channel shores).

I rather think, though, that the Cardassians had a say in that as well. Not only would this choice of attack direction sweep through the hated Demilitarized Zone, it would also finally give the Cardassians the much-contested Betreka region and deliver comeuppance to the Klingons who had so humiliated the Cardassian Central Command in the last war.

Another interesting thing about those onscreen maps is that the initially seen left half of the war map shows the Dominion expanding to the upper left, or where the Breen are placed in the Star Charts. Later on, territorial gains in this direction are actually reversed without any visible counterattack signs. It's as if the Dominion at first feinted, or took easy pickings, and then decided to move against the main adversary in a completely different direction while placating a potential future ally in the original direction.

Especially notable is that the Dominion never tries to make a move against DS9, not after the wormhole debacle between "Call to Arms" and "Sacrifice of Angels". The way those maps are set supports this strategy in full.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WalkinMan]

Thx rofeta!!!

 

[Jono]

WalkinMan said:
Thx rofeta!!!

Its okay. The image took me all of 5 minutes to throw together so it wasn't like it was much effort.

Timo said:

It is dead in line with the Dominion invasion so how it could be a surprise it would get invaded is crazy.

It depends on where you expect the invasion to be directed, now doesn't it?

Timo Saloniemi

It is true that the invasion came from a direction that intelligence had discounted due to the lack of an adequate Dominion supply line through the sector. Interestingly Kalandra is above Betazed in neutral/Fed space.

My main problem is that Betazed is so deep inside the invasion path that in my opinion it doesn't suit the story. It would have had to be isolated in the first few months of the war for that map to make sense. I had always imagined it was outside the invasion path. For example say it is up in the sector next to Kalandra. That way the invasion is expected from below (the sector Betazed is actually in) but comes through the sector next to it, which is mostly neutral space. No one really holds it so it sort of fits the unlikely invasion path thing.

Also note that the Briar patch is in Dominion space as well, which is interesting. Also it is a long way from DS9...That worf! What a traveller!

Also noticed that the tactical maps switch the arrow colours in some of the maps. Red is the Dominion in some and then it is green in another. Also in the map of the Dominion withdrawal it looks like they use both red and green to be the dominion forces...it is a bit confusing.

 

[Timo]

I can certainly understand where you are coming from. I tend to take the tack that the Dominion "invasion" prior to the Betazed thing wasn't all that sweeping and scary, though: after all, we only see the left half of the war map in the early episodes. Initially, Starfleet would be almost holding its own, there being equal, gradual UFP territorial losses in all directions (like Dukat boasts), and our heroes would be unaware of the true potential of the Dominion.

The big surprise push to the right would be several sectors wide and long, indeed requiring exceptional supply lines. Not all planets in the way of that big push would fall immediately. But when Betazed did, it might mean an immediate expansion of Dominion reach all the way to the Romulan space, there being no other major UFP assets in their way. The sudden expansion of the war map to include the right half would reflect that.

Those color-changing arrows are indeed pretty strange. Note also that some are clearly marked "JH ##" to suggest Jem'Hadar formation movements - but the letters remain there when such arrows are reversed to indicate Alpha Quadrant forces moving in against Cardassia! To continue the rationalization spree, I rather think that the "fronts" of the war are rather flexible and that the fleets move independently of said fronts, roaming across the quadrant like sailing ship fleets of the pre-coal era. "Supply lines" only affect the acquisition and holding of territory; Dominion raiding fleets can operate independently of those, and sometimes are seen maneuvering away from Cardassia, sometimes towards it... That they are a constant threat everywhere and anywhere in the UFP is a very good match with the events and dialogue, where for example the entire Starfleet 3rd Fleet is kept in readiness to protect Earth far, far away from the supposedly decisive battlefronts.

As for Briar Patch, I like to think that ST:INS takes place after the end of the Dominion War (making it at least semi-plausible that the Son'a would be UFP allies despite having been in bed with the Dominion earlier on; that the E-E would not be partaking in fighting; that our heroes would in fact not mention any fighting at all; that there could be actual negotiations going on with the Dominion; that Worf would have the time to traipse around the universe; and so on).

This would grant UFP the required access to the Patch again, while it would also jibe with the idea that the Son'a were within Dominion reach and territory during the war, and were expected to defend themselves against UFP moves at the latter stages of that war.

Also, in a serendipitous twist, Briar Patch is associated with 22nd century Klingon space in the ENT Augments trilogy, supporting the placement...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[stupidname]

Where is everybody seeing these tactical maps? Is there anywhere i can see them online?

 

[Timo]

The maps are seen as backlit Okudagrams on the station briefing room wallscreen in various DS9 episodes, and reproduced on pp.48-49 of the Star Trek Star Charts book by Geoff Mandel and pals. I don't know where they'd be visible online, though...

Edit: links removed

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

Timo, I'd have thought you'd know better than to hotlink