Starfleet Marine Corps in TUC

[Shamrock Holmes]

A reference to "Starfleet Marine Corps" appears on the briefing chart in TUC, which seems to suggest that an organisation somewhat based on the old US/UK traditions of the Marines exists in the Trek 'Verse, which is fair enough as this should be the case.

However, on reflection I think that most of the limited evidence argues against the SMC being a seperate service (which seems to be the most common fanon notion):

1) West (first name possibly Patrick) wore a regular Starfleet uniform (in Command White rather than the dark blue worn by combat specialists in TFF) with the insignia of a Vice Admiral, perhaps suggesting that "Colonel" is the title given to SMC (sub-brigade level) 'field commanders' (company commander would be "Major") suggesting that he is part of the regular Chain of Command as does -

2) The fact that they are called the Starfleet Marine Corps, rather than the Federation Marine Corps, placing them as subordinate to Starfleet (Command) rather than being equals as fanon often (though not always) has it.

Rather, I think that the "Starfleet Marine Corps" is more likely to be the 'shorthand' for the corps-size 'polar operations (and general maritime activites)' unit within either Starfleet Special Operations (SSO or SSOCOM) or Starfleet Search and Rescue (perhaps Specialist Hazard Action and Rescue Command (SHARC)?), possibly based on Andor, with 'desert warfare' units (Vulcan?) and 'cultural observation and recon' units (Earth?) existing in parallel as part of the same command.

The SMC and 'desert warfare' units would therefore be more comparable to DEVGRU/Delta Force (in the SSOCOM role) or USAF PJs (in the CSAR role) and the 'cultural observation and recon' units would evoke Force Recon and possibly elements of the Army Green Berets.

It's not a common idea, but I don't think there's anything to contradict it?

 

[Tenacity]

The uniform on West could be the generic military uniform in use at the time and not specifically a "Starfleet uniform."

The insignia is harder to explain, possibly the rank insignia of a Marine Colonel bears a close resemblance to the insignia of a Starfleet Vice Admiral, but is in fact slightly different on closer inspection.

I like the idea that Starfleet (the Fleet) and Starfleet (the Marine Corp) are both under the Starfleet Chief of Operations, but the two organizations immediately and completely split below that level.

 

[Kemaiku]

Anything to contradict it?

1. He was insane.
2. He was a terrorist plotting an attack against his own governement.
3. He was genocidal, homocidal, cowardly and conspired with the Federations enemies.
4. Everyone in the room looked at him like he was insane (well...) and regarded his plan like a crayon doodle.
5. The man himself ran it up on paper and could have written anything on it including "pew pew" between the ships.
6. They all basically dismissed him with all the decorum of "get this loony out of here" meaning what he showed them was stupid.
7. The entirety of Star Trek never showing, mentioning or otherwise hinting at a Starfleet Marine Corps other than his doodle.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

1. He was insane.
2. He was a terrorist plotting an attack against his own governement.
3. He was genocidal, homocidal, cowardly and conspired with the Federations enemies.
4. Everyone in the room looked at him like he was insane (well...) and regarded his plan like a crayon doodle.
5. The man himself ran it up on paper and could have written anything on it including "pew pew" between the ships.
6. They all basically dismissed him with all the decorum of "get this loony out of here" meaning what he showed them was stupid.
7. The entirety of Star Trek never showing, mentioning or otherwise hinting at a Starfleet Marine Corps other than his doodle.

I'll admit that Cartwright was a bit bonkers, and the flipchart was definately a silly anachronism, however while the chart is only reference to a "Starfleet Marine Corps" specifically, STV:TFF does include combat/hostage rescue specialists, and what appear to be Starfleet ground troops also appear at least a couple of times on DSN (in fact, IIRC O'Brien indicates on a least one occassion that he was a soldier during the Federation/Cardassian War [whch at minimum indicates that there are personnel within Starfleet that specialise in combat operations, even more so than regular security guards].

I agree that politically it's likely that the Federation likes to depict Starfleet as defensive rather than agressive and militaristic, which is why I suggested that the SMC is offically a Search-and-Rescue/Hostage Rescue unit (think FBI HRT) rather than infantry - even if it likely has most of the capabilities of light infantry (similar to how the Defiant was offically an "escort" (a defensive role) rather than a "warship" (an offensive role) - as this would IMO be more politically pallitable while still fitting the above evidence.

 

[Kemaiku]

Wanting to kill several billion people and allow the fallout to spill over into two major powers at least, affecting tens of billions, over simple racism is more than "a bit bonkers".

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I will concede your point vis-a-vis Cartwright.

What is your objection to the concept that specific Starfleet specialists exist for the purpose of rescuing (high-level) Federation/Starfleet personnel (known as Starfleet Marine Corps in at least shorthand) that may also day-to-day engage in search-and-rescue work and may act as frontline troops in times of war?

Something that we see done in TFF and (quite reasonably) being planned in TUC.

 

[Elder Knight]

My theory was that West was the Admiral in charge of Starfleet food services, and he was merely a Kentucky Colonel.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Colonel is his first name.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

A reference to "Starfleet Marine Corps" appears on the briefing chart in TUC

The Operation Retrieve charts do not in fact mention any such thing, as far as I can see:

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ You're missing a page.

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/s...16aed474d7000dfddc7f611da+1471141783+hmacsha1

Scroll down to the point right after the shot of Colonel West pointing at the Operation Retrieve easel. Note the "Standby Ground Troops Starfleet Tactical Marine Corps Entry Point".

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

^ You're missing a page.

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1219709/proof-that-starfleet-is-a-naval-force-military?sso=eyJuYW1lIjoiIiwicGhvdG91cmwiOiIiLCJjbGllbnRfaWQiOiIxNDQzOTY4OTgxIn0=+19086d3cd78df8116aed474d7000dfddc7f611da+1471141783+hmacsha1

Scroll down to the point right after the shot of Colonel West pointing at the Operation Retrieve easel. Note the "Standby Ground Troops Starfleet Tactical Marine Corps Entry Point".

No, that is someone's inaccurate reproduction or speculative reconstruction made before detailed photographs of the actual prop were available. That page is included in the images I posted, and the actual text reads "EFFECTIVE LIMIT OF SURFACE CONFINEMENT FORCE FIELD."

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

No, that is someone's inaccurate reproduction or speculative reconstruction made before detailed photographs of the actual prop were available. That page is included in the images I posted, and the actual text reads "EFFECTIVE LIMIT OF SURFACE CONFINEMENT FORCE FIELD."

Hard to see how you could confuse the two.

Interestingly tho, the format of the 'wrong version' actually supports my idea (which IMO still basically works) that the 'Marine Corps' are a DEVGRU-analogue as "Starfleet Tactical" (which the Marines appear to be part of) is per BOBW the strategic planning and R & D division of Starfleet (the 'Warfare Developement Group as it were).

Also, in the RW, an operation like that would involve the use of Special Operations forces (similiarly to the Nimbus Three operation in the film before which provided a dept color but not name for such personnel), so as TUC was also filmed during the 'Starfleet is a military' (in terms of dialogue and staging) I think it is reasonable to assume that such forces were involved, though I agree that we are potentially back at the 'no canonical name' point with them.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Yes, for the record, I am not opposed to the idea of Starfleet Marines (in this period, at any rate) and agree that Colonel West's rank could very well be taken to suggest such. I just wanted to clear up the oft-repeated misconception that they are actually referred to in the text of the Operation Retrieve charts. Clearly, some have mistaken a fan-made version for the genuine article.

Incidentally, I should probably have noted that the photos I posted of the actual prop were taken by the current owner and obtained here:
http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=246064

Also, the starship names rendered barely legible on the final page due to damage to the prop are listed in Bjo Trimble's revised Star Trek Concordance: Challenger, Constellation, Scovill, Lantree, Oberth, Emden, Korolev, and Ahwahnee. This final page was not shown onscreen, but the same names were also used on multiple computer displays on the Enterprise-A bridge in the film, visible at upper right in the following shots for example:

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Colonel West is oh-so-obviously an allusion to the historical figure Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North. It would have been somewhat harder to smack us in the face with that, had he had a regular Starfleet rank.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Colonel West is oh-so-obviously an allusion to the historical figure Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North. It would have been somewhat harder to smack us in the face with that, had he had a regular Starfleet rank.

That is certainly widely believed out-of-universe.

Had another thought regarding assignments on rescue/tactical teams (that may or may not be known as the SMC or similar), as what is sometimes known as the "Command Star" was previously (one of) the symbols for the UE MACOs (it was on their rank insignia) is it likely that (at least for officers) the Flight Division (Helm-Nav-Weps), the Executive Division (CO, XO, COB) and the squad commanders would draw from a common pool? (Tho enlisted Flight Specialists would probably be most different from Security or Rescue/Special Tactics Specialists).

 

[WarpFactorZ]

These are amazing! Two things I immediately noticed:

1. In the top image, we see starships of varying sizes. Assuming these are to scale with the actual ships, the Potempkin icon looks to be almost the same size as Excelsior, while the Eagle is smaller (similar to the size of a Constitution class). These size differences are again indicated in the side key showing the Endeavour et al. So, like the background videos in STiD, this Starfleet has ships of similar design but varying scales.

2. In the bottom image, the USS Constellation is listed as NX-1974. One might imagine this is the prototype of the Constellation class (it did look to be of the TOS movie era).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Obviously Starfleet has some form of ground troops. We've mostly seen them on DS9 (and they even used that phrase - 'ground troops'), but they have appeared in other places as well. The fact THAT they exist is inescapable; it's just a matter of what to call them.

I find it extremely unlikely they are the normal garden-variety Starfleet Security. That's for security guards on board ship - the redshirts from TOS. It would be no more appropriate to send such redshirts into ground engagements than it would to take a door greeter at Walmart and send him to Afghanistan.

So the question remains, what do we call Starfleet ground troops? I am sticking to the phrase "Starfleet Marine Corps" simply because I like the sound of it...I wouldn't call them "Federation Marines" mostly because Kirk, in TOS, says Starfleet is a combined service. Which suggests to me that the division into "Starfleet" (the navy) and "Starfleet Marine Corps" is the most realistic option.

 

[jaime]

Obviously Starfleet has some form of ground troops. We've mostly seen them on DS9 (and they even used that phrase - 'ground troops'), but they have appeared in other places as well. The fact THAT they exist is inescapable; it's just a matter of what to call them.

I find it extremely unlikely they are the normal garden-variety Starfleet Security. That's for security guards on board ship - the redshirts from TOS. It would be no more appropriate to send such redshirts into ground engagements than it would to take a door greeter at Walmart and send him to Afghanistan.

So the question remains, what do we call Starfleet ground troops? I am sticking to the phrase "Starfleet Marine Corps" simply because I like the sound of it...I wouldn't call them "Federation Marines" mostly because Kirk, in TOS, says Starfleet is a combined service. Which suggests to me that the division into "Starfleet" (the navy) and "Starfleet Marine Corps" is the most realistic option.

A starship exploring unknown space is rather not Walmart.
Though I do understand America can be rough, and over here Walmart is Asda...hmm. I did know one security guard who swore blind he was from SAS country and followed martial arts...but then he also likes to see if he could get grippy on cough syrup.
Either way I am thinking Lieutenants Worf and Yar were clearly over overqualified if starfleet security is akin to mall cops.

Or, alternatively...there are no starfleet marines. What with ground warfare being almost totally useless in the face of starships and general order seven.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

ground warfare being almost totally useless in the face of starships and general order seven.

I think we all know that's not true.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I find it extremely unlikely they are the normal garden-variety Starfleet Security. That's for security guards on board ship - the redshirts from TOS. It would be no more appropriate to send such redshirts into ground engagements than it would to take a door greeter at Walmart and send him to Afghanistan.

That's an odd analogy. The greeters at my Wal Mart are mostly elderly men and women. They have very little to do with security. I'm gonna assume Starfleet Security has some training in weapons and hand to hand combat and would fair a bit better in a combat situation than a bored semiretired septuagenarian.