When Janeway was promoted to Vice Admiral and assigned to Starfleet Command what was her job?
Was Kirk an Admiral or one of the lesser Admirals?
JDW
Was Kirk an Admiral or one of the lesser Admirals?
JDW
Starfleet Admirals?
- Thread starter James Wright
- Start date
While it was believeable that Janeway became an admiral after Voyager it is hard to swallow that she was a Vice Admiral by Nemesis. Since there was alot of mention in Nemesis about them being together for 15 years, one can not say the movie took place many more years later. I'm sure if Sisko did not end up with the Profits he would have also been an admiral by Nemesis, but i doubt he would have been a vice admiral.
I think Kirk was Chief of Starfleet Operations in TMP, but possibly a rear admiral (and commandant of Starfleet Academy perhaps?) by the time of TWOK.
Janeway's promotion from captain to vice admiral might have been to fill an immediate vacancy at the Admiralty in the post-Dominion War era and might have been more a political thing than anything else. Janeway might have held a post like Chief of Deep Space Operations or Chief of Starfleet Foreign Relations, I dunno...
Janeway's promotion from captain to vice admiral might have been to fill an immediate vacancy at the Admiralty in the post-Dominion War era and might have been more a political thing than anything else. Janeway might have held a post like Chief of Deep Space Operations or Chief of Starfleet Foreign Relations, I dunno...
There be truth in thy jest!
People,
Yeah, the Vice Admiral Janeway thing bugged me. I recently found out something about flag officers in today's military that might help explain this discrepancy. There sometimes isn't a straight line for promotions. A position will open up that requires a three-star admiral, and sometimes, a candidate is nominated who is a one-star admiral (rear admiral, lower half, in the U.S. Navy). That person gets a temporary bump up to that rank for the duration of the assignment, then reverts to his original rank once the assignment is over.
So let's assume Janeway got a promotion to rear admiral. A position opens up that requires a vice admiral -- she's nominated and receives a bump up in rank for the duration of that assignment. As plausibly mentioned above, there may be a shortage of admirals post-Dominion War.
As for Kirk, they never mentioned his precise rank but I assume he was a rear admiral. As chief of operations, he probably got a bump up to full admiral for the duration of the assignment, then got dropped down to whatever actual rank he held. Hell, by the time of TWOK, he might have been promoted to full admiral by then. We have no way of knowing.
Red Ranger
Yeah, the Vice Admiral Janeway thing bugged me. I recently found out something about flag officers in today's military that might help explain this discrepancy. There sometimes isn't a straight line for promotions. A position will open up that requires a three-star admiral, and sometimes, a candidate is nominated who is a one-star admiral (rear admiral, lower half, in the U.S. Navy). That person gets a temporary bump up to that rank for the duration of the assignment, then reverts to his original rank once the assignment is over.
So let's assume Janeway got a promotion to rear admiral. A position opens up that requires a vice admiral -- she's nominated and receives a bump up in rank for the duration of that assignment. As plausibly mentioned above, there may be a shortage of admirals post-Dominion War.
As for Kirk, they never mentioned his precise rank but I assume he was a rear admiral. As chief of operations, he probably got a bump up to full admiral for the duration of the assignment, then got dropped down to whatever actual rank he held. Hell, by the time of TWOK, he might have been promoted to full admiral by then. We have no way of knowing.
Red Ranger
Uh, we do have one way of knowing - we can look at his rank insignia.
In TMP, he wears one wide stripe plus one narrow, which we don't have an outright explanation for, but which can readily be interpreted by comparing with real-world rank braid. The broad stripe would denote flag rank, and alone it would probably stand for Commodore (like it did in TOS). The single narrow stripe would indicate rank one step above the lowest possible, in this case Rear Admiral over Commodore.
In ST2-4, Kirk wears a rank pin that cannot be compared with real-world pins. But costume designer Fletcher's notes quickly establish this as being Rear Admiral, and indeed the pin is almost the plainest of all seen in the movies, there being several more ornate ones for the evil or indifferent other Admirals (is there such a beast as a good Admiral?), and one slightly plainer for a couple of extras who thus were supposed to be Commodores.
So the idea that Kirk would have "earned" Rear Admiral rank after TOS (probably going through Commodore first), then been bumped to a rank more matching his Chief of SF Ops status for the years before TMP, and restored to Rear Admiral just before the movie began because he had stepped down from his position for this mission, appears quite acceptable. Ditto for Janeway: promoted from Captain to Commodore or Rear Admiral, then bumped to Vice Admiral for the posting as CinCRom or whatnot.
Perhaps Kirk's ST:GEN-alleged temporary retirement came between TMP and ST2, explaining why he made little progress in rank? In today's USN, people who don't get bumped to a high-rank position may languish at the "waiting ranks" of Rear Admiral (upper and lower half of the waiting list) for a time, then be promoted further in an "usual" fashion, eventually possibly reaching high flag rank. Kirk, OTOH, might not have exactly labored to earn promotions at that time period. And yes, Academy Commandant is a nice idea for what he was doing at the time of ST2.
Timo Saloniemi
In TMP, he wears one wide stripe plus one narrow, which we don't have an outright explanation for, but which can readily be interpreted by comparing with real-world rank braid. The broad stripe would denote flag rank, and alone it would probably stand for Commodore (like it did in TOS). The single narrow stripe would indicate rank one step above the lowest possible, in this case Rear Admiral over Commodore.
In ST2-4, Kirk wears a rank pin that cannot be compared with real-world pins. But costume designer Fletcher's notes quickly establish this as being Rear Admiral, and indeed the pin is almost the plainest of all seen in the movies, there being several more ornate ones for the evil or indifferent other Admirals (is there such a beast as a good Admiral?), and one slightly plainer for a couple of extras who thus were supposed to be Commodores.
So the idea that Kirk would have "earned" Rear Admiral rank after TOS (probably going through Commodore first), then been bumped to a rank more matching his Chief of SF Ops status for the years before TMP, and restored to Rear Admiral just before the movie began because he had stepped down from his position for this mission, appears quite acceptable. Ditto for Janeway: promoted from Captain to Commodore or Rear Admiral, then bumped to Vice Admiral for the posting as CinCRom or whatnot.
Perhaps Kirk's ST:GEN-alleged temporary retirement came between TMP and ST2, explaining why he made little progress in rank? In today's USN, people who don't get bumped to a high-rank position may languish at the "waiting ranks" of Rear Admiral (upper and lower half of the waiting list) for a time, then be promoted further in an "usual" fashion, eventually possibly reaching high flag rank. Kirk, OTOH, might not have exactly labored to earn promotions at that time period. And yes, Academy Commandant is a nice idea for what he was doing at the time of ST2.
Timo Saloniemi
In regards to Janeway being a Vice Admiral, I just assumed that that is because the props or costuming department (whoever looks after the pips) has an over-abundance of the three-boxed pips of a Vice Admiral. After all, 90 percent of the Admirals seen in the 24th century wore Vice Admiral insignia.
Timo:
You're probably right. I forgot about Kirk's sleeve rank in TMP. I just remember he had a star on his epaulets. So it's most likely he was a rear admiral, based on the uniforms and insignia he wore. So, let's call it "circumstantial canon." But according to the strictest interpretation of canon, he's never called Rear Admiral Kirk in any dialogue, just Admiral Kirk --although I do know all admirals can be referred to as simply, "admiral" regardless of actual rank.
BTW, I do remember seeing an interview back in the 1980s with William Shatner where he said, "I don't want to be a rear admiral -- too many bad jokes!" So maybe Shatner said, "Just don't call me rear admiral on screen, all right?"
Red Ranger
Given that Kirk was captain of the Federation flagship and seemed to have an exceptional reputation with Star Fleet Command, I would assume that reaching full admiral rank would not be a big stretch, especially as there has obviously been some time between captaining the Enterprise and when we see him at the Academy.
...At this juncture, it's prudent to remind us folks that nothing in TOS or the TOS movies suggests that the original Enterprise would ever have held Starfleet flagship status, or any sort of privilege status or special reputation for that matter.
Indeed, the only time even Kirk himself said a positive word about his ship was in "Immunity Syndrome", under intense prompting from his XO and in a situation where exaggerated pep talk was needed to rouse the spirits of the crew. And even there, he only says he has the "best crew" of them all, not that his ship is superior to all others or holds special status in the eyes of Starfleet top brass.
Now, the E-A might at some point have been a special vessel for top diplomacy, as it was used that way in ST6. Then again, she might have been another run-of-the-mill cruiser, sent only because she happened to be Kirk's ship and Kirk was the one who had to go on this mission for political and psychological reasons.
Timo Saloniemi
Indeed, the only time even Kirk himself said a positive word about his ship was in "Immunity Syndrome", under intense prompting from his XO and in a situation where exaggerated pep talk was needed to rouse the spirits of the crew. And even there, he only says he has the "best crew" of them all, not that his ship is superior to all others or holds special status in the eyes of Starfleet top brass.
Now, the E-A might at some point have been a special vessel for top diplomacy, as it was used that way in ST6. Then again, she might have been another run-of-the-mill cruiser, sent only because she happened to be Kirk's ship and Kirk was the one who had to go on this mission for political and psychological reasons.
Timo Saloniemi
Technically, isn't any ship commanded by an Admiral, or with an Admiral on board, considered a flagship? Not of the entire fleet, of course (AFAIK, there is no such thing, not IRL anyway), but it is that Admiral's personal flagship.
My $0.02:
The Encyclopedia gives the Admiral rank sequence as follows:
Commodore (1 Star, for TNG)
Rear Admiral (2 Star)
Vice Admiral (3 Star)
Admiral (4 Star)
Fleet Admiral (5 Star)
Note: In the early seasons of TNG, there were references to "Senior Admirals", which included Picard's friend Gregory Quinn. I'm not sure, but if you look closely at Quinn's pips, it looks like he has SIX stars. So...
Senior Admiral (6 Stars)
The Encyclopedia gives the Admiral rank sequence as follows:
Commodore (1 Star, for TNG)
Rear Admiral (2 Star)
Vice Admiral (3 Star)
Admiral (4 Star)
Fleet Admiral (5 Star)
Note: In the early seasons of TNG, there were references to "Senior Admirals", which included Picard's friend Gregory Quinn. I'm not sure, but if you look closely at Quinn's pips, it looks like he has SIX stars. So...
Senior Admiral (6 Stars)
I got the impression Kirk didn't like being an Admiral, perhaps Spock was right, Kirk shouldn't have accecpted the promotion!?
The promotion seems to have been the right thing for Janeway!
JDW
The promotion seems to have been the right thing for Janeway!
JDW
Acctually, according to the Memory Alpha page on Gregory Quinn, he had no pips, just a rank braid. They speculate that he was probably a Rear Admiral, Lower Half (otherwise known as a Commodore).
In USN practice, if an admiral comes aboard a naval vessel as a passenger, his/her flag is flown as a courtesy if there is not a senior flag officer aboard. But the term "flagship" is generally used to mean a ship that is designated for use by a flag officer who commands at sea. Of course, if the flagship is not available or usable (as has happened many times in battle) and the admiral shifts to another vessel, that becomes the flagship.
Fleets are usually commanded from shore today, but there are presently two command ships used as flagships by US fleet commanders: USS Mount Whitney for Commander Sixth Fleet in Italy, and USS Blue Ridge for Commander Seventh Fleet in Japan. The last real flagship for the entire navy (or most of it, anyway) was the battleship Pennsylvania, but after Pearl Harbor Admiral Nimitz decided that his command-in-chief would be based ashore. Admiral King in D.C. did have an official flagship: a converted yacht at the navy yard which he lived aboard most weeknights, but it never went to sea.
--Justin
Similar threads
