Star Wars: Obi Wan Question

[JediKnightButler]

I've been wondering exactly why Obi-Wan declares in Episode III (and acknowledges in the OT) that he "failed" Anakin? What exactly did he do wrong that allowed Anakin to *become* Vader? How exactly is he responsible for Anakin's downfall?
Is it perhaps that he simply feels responsible because Anakin does fall to the dark side in Episode III and he was his teacher? I guess I could see where he might feel partially responsible for it just because of that but, objectively speaking, I don't know of much that he or anybody else could've done differently with Anakin that would've resulted in him not falling under Sidious' sway. I've heard other people suggest that Anakin might've had a better outcome had Qui-Gon remained his master, which might have been true (we'll of course never know) but was there anything in particular that anybody could objectively point to to say that it was because Obi-Wan didn't do this or Obi-Wan did that that makes him fully (or even partially) culpable for Anakin's eventual downfall?
We know that the outcome was pre-ordained by the storyline but it would've been nice if we could've more clearly seen in the PT why he feels as responsible for Anakin/Vader's downfall as he apparently does in the OT. I recall that Obi-Wan makes a vague reference in ROTJ (I believe) that he believed that he could instruct Anakin as well as Yoda had instructed him (and was proved wrong), which suggests that maybe he felt that he was a "prideful" about his training of Anakin but we really didn't see that same level of certainty about his training of Anakin in the PT. In fact, as we saw in TPM, his decision to train Anakin seemed to be a much more reluctant one, pursued pretty much only as a result of Qui-Gon's dying request and he usually seemed more frustrated and exasperated by his seeming inability to keep Anakin under control in Episodes II & III (and the animated series as well) although he does praise Anakin in a rather touching moment in Episode III right before he leaves for Utapau to go after Grievous and all (literal) hell breaks loose for the Jedi. I wonder if, later, simply not being aware- at that point-Obi Wan maybe felt guilty for not realizing just how far Anakin had slid/was sliding towards the dark side. Of course, the entire Jedi Order was tragically blinded by that point to Palpatine's machinations that were leading them inexorably to their eventual downfall.
Thoughts? Opinions?

 

[Dorian Thompson]

I think Obi-Wan blamed himself too much. I don't think he did anything in particular that was grievously "wrong" except, perhaps, looking the other way about Anakin's romantic relationship (that was the impression I got in episode 3, that he chose to ignore it) since fear of losing Padme did, in fact, drive Anakin to acts of evil. Obi-Wan was definitely willfully blind to Anakin's more serious flaws because he loved him. Obi-Wan was too "human" and not Jedi enough where Anakin was concerned, though he seemed to be quite the zealous disciplinarian in the beginning. Obi-Wan believed he could train Anakin as well as Yoda and/or the council and he turned out to be tragically wrong, for which he blamed himself. He should have sensed something but didn't because he was too emotionally involved. However, he was put in a no win position because of Qui-Gon's "deathbed" request, which was a form of emotional blackmail. Obi-Wan was, ironically, very much like Anakin in that he became too attached to people in ways the Jedi discouraged. He loved Qui-Gon, too. However, Obi-Wan had a functioning moral compass while Anakin's compass broke.

The one thing Obi-Wan really did wrong, IMO, was agreeing to the council's request that he ask Anakin to spy on Palpatine, whom he knew was a valued friend of Anakin's. Obi-Wan didn't trust Palpatine, and he put that distrust ahead of the distress Anakin would feel at being asked to spy. I think that greatly disappointed Anakin, but it is in no way an excuse for him to aid and abet in the genocide of the Jedi as a whole and to murder children. Anakin was an adult responsible for his own actions. You don't take it out on society because your parent made one mistake. Obi-Wan made one error in judgment. Anakin's sins were his own.

 

[Gaith]

For never picking up that Anakin was married, or, if he did, not ratting him out?

 

[Checkmate]

Because of ham-fisted writing in order to shoe-horn the character's personality in the original trilogy? Particularly in A New Hope where Lucas, despite claims to the contrary, had absolutely no idea what the fuck he was talking about and just gave Obi-Wan the typical "your pa's old pardner" lines?

That's my guess and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

I still say the prequels would have benefitted from focusing on Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship and not the Anakin/Padme romance. It may be cheesy, but bromance works. Play up the tragedy. On a human level, it works.

 

[JediKnightButler]

For never picking up that Anakin was married, or, if he did, not ratting him out?

That's probably the one issue that he probably felt the most guilty about. As James Arnold Taylor (voice actor for Obi-Wan in TCW) said (in jest) at the recent Comic Con during a reading (paraphrasing here): "I can't believe that nobody sees what's really going on between them (referring to Anakin & Padme)."

In all fairness, however, I'm not sure exactly what anybody, Obi-Wan or anybody else, could've or would've done had they known or found out about him and Padme other than to expel him from the Order but he wasn't just any rank-and-file Jedi either. Although some had doubts, he was believed by most of the masters to be "The Chosen One" and they knew he wasn't (and never would be) a "model Jedi" to the point of, by ROTS, pretty much giving up trying to control him (as Palpatine/Sidious observed to Dooku in the novelization of ROTS) and just gave him jobs to do and let him do it his own way-turning their heads away from the fallout. My feeling is that many of the Jedi, primarily people like Mace, didn't want Anakin in the Jedi Order and mostly tolerated his presence but I imagine that, with the re-emergence of the Sith and his high midichlorian count, they probably worried more about what Anakin might do if he wasn't a member of the Order. It's kind of like they knew Anakin would probably be trouble for them but they believed that they would be able to tame him, control him to some extent. They were proven wrong, of course, when he aided Palpatine with bringing down the Order, although the Sith were finally vanquished themselves in ROTJ when Anakin/Vader, the ultimate "inside man" to Palpatine/Sidious, unexpectedly turns on him and destroys him. Ironically, Anakin having a family (i.e. attachments) actually ended up saving the galaxy and the enabled the Jedi Order to return in the end.
My belief is that Obi-Wan knew about Anakin and Padme but likely chose to protect Anakin's secret because of his close relationship with Anakin as his master/friend and possibly because he felt sorry for Anakin and the losses he had suffered (i.e. leaving his mother, his mother's death) and he chose to remain silent about it until the very end of ROTS when he painfully acknowledges it.
Part of the tragedy regarding Anakin, at least for me, is that the Jedi Order didn't understand that Anakin might have needed to be trained differently than other Jedi because of his age and other circumstances- which is probably why Qui-Gon, being somewhat of a rogue Jedi himself, might have been a better master for Anakin in the final analysis.

 

[Broccoli]

^ Also the fact that Anakin was a war hero, if the Jedi would kick him out, the public might become enraged. Keeping Anakin was a good PR move.

 

[DigificWriter]

That line speaks entirely to Obi-Wan's personal views on the tragedy of Anakin's fall; he was about as close to Anakin as anyone besides Padme (I firmly believe that Obi-Wan was in fact aware of Anakin's marriage, but chose to allow his friend and former Padawan to make his own decisions, even if he personally disagreed with them and even if they went against the Jedi code [A real-world equivalent would be a straight person who believes that homosexuality is wrong having a very close friend who is gay/lesbian and letting said second person live their own life despite their own personal feelings on the matter]) and, as established by RotJ, clearly felt as if he could've or should've done something to prevent Anakin's fall from occuring.

 

[JediKnightButler]

^ Also the fact that Anakin was a war hero, if the Jedi would kick him out, the public might become enraged. Keeping Anakin was a good PR move.

Good point. I would add that, in the novelization, Palpatine/Sidious was talking to Dooku about their "plan" to bring Anakin over to their side by killing Obi-Wan and using Anakin's anguish over his death and status as a war hero- as well Anakin's subsequent "capture" of Dooku-to allow the Separatists to force the Republic into surrendering. Needless to say, it didn't quite work out that way.

 

[DWF]

^ Also the fact that Anakin was a war hero, if the Jedi would kick him out, the public might become enraged. Keeping Anakin was a good PR move.

Good point. I would add that, in the novelization, Palpatine/Sidious was talking to Dooku about their "plan" to bring Anakin over to their side by killing Obi-Wan and using Anakin's anguish over his death and status as a war hero- as well Anakin's subsequent "capture" of Dooku-to allow the Separatists to force the Republic into surrendering. Needless to say, it didn't quite work out that way.

Yeah but in the end it was Palpatine's plan to get rid of Dooku and replace him with Anakin, something Dooku realized towards the end his dual with Anakin in the novel as well.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Obi-Wan felt a parent's guilt when your child goes bad. He raised Anakin. However, him doing it as a deathbed promise invokes sympathy for the character. He raised Anakin out of loyalty to his own father figure instead of doing it because he really wanted to. That he grew to love Anakin later is incidental to the fact that he became his master for the wrong reasons. No matter how good intentioned, Obi-Wan was too young to handle a special needs Jedi wannabe with as many emotional problems as Anakin. It was a disaster waiting to happen. Obi-Wan was FUBAR'd without a chance from the very beginning. The deck was stacked against him.

 

[Gaith]

Yeah but in the end it was Palpatine's plan to get rid of Dooku and replace him with Anakin, something Dooku realized towards the end his dual with Anakin in the novel as well.

Which sort of begs the question of why Dooku didn't expose Palps as Anakin threatened to take him down...

 

[Showdown]

I've been wondering exactly why Obi-Wan declares in Episode III (and acknowledges in the OT) that he "failed" Anakin? What exactly did he do wrong that allowed Anakin to *become* Vader? How exactly is he responsible for Anakin's downfall?

...

Thoughts? Opinions?

Its how he felt. He views himself as Anakin's father figure. He thought he could do more to prevent Anakin from the Darkside. He failed to see the signs of Anakin's downfall. At least, thats what I think.

 

[JediKnightButler]

Yeah but in the end it was Palpatine's plan to get rid of Dooku and replace him with Anakin, something Dooku realized towards the end his dual with Anakin in the novel as well.

Yeah, that was a really well done scene in the novelization IMHO, particularly how Stover shows Dooku going from seeing their duel as a farce to realizing that Anakin might actually kill him and then finally realizing that he had been totally played/duped by Palpatine/Sidious during his entire service to him and was doomed. Pitch perfect writing.

 

[JediKnightButler]

"Which sort of begs the question of why Dooku didn't expose Palps as Anakin threatened to take him down... "

That's a good question. From the look on his face (in the movie), I just got the impression that he was simply too shocked to react given that Palpatine/Sidious was ordering Anakin to kill him when all he was expecting was to be taken prisoner- not to mention the fact that he ultimately had very little time to do anything between the time he lost his hands and then (literally) lost his head. Also, he surmised (probably correctly) that Anakin wouldn't believe him anyway. After all, Obi-Wan in AOTC refused to believe Dooku's assertion that the Senate was under the control of a Sith Lord- even though it was essentially true. In the novelization Dooku does try to beg for his life- requesting amnesty- but Palpatine/Sidious simply turns him down flat and orders Anakin to kill him- which, as we know, he does. Remember: "Dead men tell no tales"

 

[suarezguy]

IIRC, Lucas has stated that Qui-Gon was pretty much wrong in wanting to train Anakin, that Anakin was pretty much doomed for beginning training at the "too old" age of 9, when he already had the idea of attachments. (His beginning training late probably also gave him a degree of individuality and hence pride unusual to Jedi)
The view that he was doomed from the start makes the character less interesting, but it does explain why Lucas choose to skip over his training and just imply what happened over 10 years.

 

[DWF]

Yeah but in the end it was Palpatine's plan to get rid of Dooku and replace him with Anakin, something Dooku realized towards the end his dual with Anakin in the novel as well.

Yeah, that was a really well done scene in the novelization IMHO, particularly how Stover shows Dooku going from seeing their duel as a farce to realizing that Anakin might actually kill him and then finally realizing that he had been totally played/duped by Palpatine/Sidious during his entire service to him and was doomed. Pitch perfect writing.

Which is why I think the movie should've been longer, that dual was far too fast for the audience to realize that Dooku understood in the end what was happeing to him. And in the novel you really understand the how and why Anakin fell, the visions weren't allowing hims to sleep and eat properly, making his mind rather malleable for Paplatine.

 

[milo bloom]

IIRC, Lucas has stated that Qui-Gon was pretty much wrong in wanting to train Anakin, that Anakin was pretty much doomed for beginning training at the "too old" age of 9, when he already had the idea of attachments. (His beginning training late probably also gave him a degree of individuality and hence pride unusual to Jedi)
The view that he was doomed from the start makes the character less interesting, but it does explain why Lucas choose to skip over his training and just imply what happened over 10 years.

I've always felt that the failure of Obi-Wan, Yoda, and all the other Jedi was not realizing that familial attachments could also help Jedi as they grew, by helping to ground them to reality. Had the Jedi Order rescued Schmi from Tattooine, accepted the fact that Anakin was starting the training older and needed a little extra help here and there in dealing with people, he might have stood a chance against the dark side.

I haven't read SW novel in years, but I do recall when Luke was starting his new academy, he had no issues with starting people as adults and never forced them to cut off their ties to friends and family. He even had a girlfriend and was close to Han and Leia and everyone else.

 

[Gaith]

^^ Reminds me of a certain Topless Robot SW Haiku Contest...

Padme would be here
if spoiled b**** had just bought
Anakin's slave mom

Author SnakeEyes22 kinda has a point there...