The Undiscovered Country is the afterlife, Heaven or hell, not the future.
I hate it when people lie to me.
Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it means.
- Thread starter Guy Gardener
- Start date
I hate it when people lie to me.
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
Meyer was keen on using "The Undiscovered Country" as a title, back during ST II.
As the Afterlife, Heaven and Hell, it would have worked better as the title for ST II with that film's plot and ideas.
I guess Meyer was determined to use "The Undiscovered Country" anyway, even if he had to fudge the meaning as intended.
Meyer was keen on using "The Undiscovered Country" as a title, back during ST II.
As the Afterlife, Heaven and Hell, it would have worked better as the title for ST II with that film's plot and ideas.
I guess Meyer was determined to use "The Undiscovered Country" anyway, even if he had to fudge the meaning as intended.
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
(Incidentally, I can't remember the last time I've heard "to coin a phrase" used unironically)
Well, Gorkon was obviously being figurative. TUC is something of an elegy, and the end of the Klingon-Federation cold war is used as a metaphor for death and rebirth throughout (and vice-versa, in Gorkon's case).The discussions of retirement, Kirk and McCoy's chat in the prison which he later echos to Azetbur about being afraid of "the future," and Spock "dining on ashes" just before the final battle all emphasize this. Most importantly, it's the end of the war that closes off the TOS era and inaugurates the next generation, to coin a phrase.
(Incidentally, I can't remember the last time I've heard "to coin a phrase" used unironically)
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
That's nonsense. It IS the future, and not the afterlife. Your Shakespeare version is just a wrong translation from the Klingon original.
(couldn't resist.)
That's nonsense. It IS the future, and not the afterlife. Your Shakespeare version is just a wrong translation from the Klingon original.
(couldn't resist.)
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
Agreed, sonak. Being of somewhat advanced years, I remember seeing the second film discussed in weekly Variety - printed on newsprint and available at the time for 75 cents at newsstands in center-city Philadelphia - under the title Star Trek II: The Undiscovered Country, presumably in early to mid-1981.
Agreed, sonak. Being of somewhat advanced years, I remember seeing the second film discussed in weekly Variety - printed on newsprint and available at the time for 75 cents at newsstands in center-city Philadelphia - under the title Star Trek II: The Undiscovered Country, presumably in early to mid-1981.
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
I think the title is perfect. Yes, originally it the term referred to the afterlife and the film doesn't, but the quote captures the theme of the film perfectly. Simply remove one word, death, so that "something after" refers vaguely to the future, and this is what we have:
That's exactly what the film is about: people afraid of an unknown future preferring the devil they know. I don't think TUC's theme can be described any better than the Bard did it centuries before the film was conceived.
I think the title is perfect. Yes, originally it the term referred to the afterlife and the film doesn't, but the quote captures the theme of the film perfectly. Simply remove one word, death, so that "something after" refers vaguely to the future, and this is what we have:
That's exactly what the film is about: people afraid of an unknown future preferring the devil they know. I don't think TUC's theme can be described any better than the Bard did it centuries before the film was conceived.
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
BTW, I have a copy of a TWOK shooting script that I found in the special collections at the UC Riverside library about 20 years ago. It's actually put together from pages from various drafts resulting in things like Saavik being on Regula and Spock on the Enterprise, then you turn the page and they have switched places. You also get to see Peter Preston convalescing in sickbay after his death. Anyway, the title page says The Undiscovered Country, and the last line of dialog is "Second star to the right and straight on till morning."
BTW, I have a copy of a TWOK shooting script that I found in the special collections at the UC Riverside library about 20 years ago. It's actually put together from pages from various drafts resulting in things like Saavik being on Regula and Spock on the Enterprise, then you turn the page and they have switched places. You also get to see Peter Preston convalescing in sickbay after his death. Anyway, the title page says The Undiscovered Country, and the last line of dialog is "Second star to the right and straight on till morning."
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
...When Gorkon proposes the toast, it's pretty clear the humans around are thinking he is toasting death, and are swallowing their surprise and comments - until the Klingon offers an alternate interpretation. It's a nice selling point, and perhaps the cleverest little thing in the whole movie. Although the old Vulcan proverb is cute as well, ranking among the top three excuses for thrusting our heroes into an adventure where they don't really belong. (Worf's deliciously off-camera excuse in ST:INS is up there, too.)
Timo Saloniemi
...When Gorkon proposes the toast, it's pretty clear the humans around are thinking he is toasting death, and are swallowing their surprise and comments - until the Klingon offers an alternate interpretation. It's a nice selling point, and perhaps the cleverest little thing in the whole movie. Although the old Vulcan proverb is cute as well, ranking among the top three excuses for thrusting our heroes into an adventure where they don't really belong. (Worf's deliciously off-camera excuse in ST:INS is up there, too.)
Timo Saloniemi
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
^
Why was Worf in insurrection? I forgot
^
Why was Worf in insurrection? I forgot
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
His own grandfather the lawyer.
His own grandfather the lawyer.
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
Sure, they wrote some nonsense for Dorn to speak on the background, but they also made sure it wasn't completely audible. Something to do with checking on local defense arrangements in the 'hood.
Klingons may well suffer from the same problem as the Chinese: too few names to effectively distinguish between people in a multi-billion population...
Then again, we get Charles Tucker III.
Timo Saloniemi
That's the cute thing about it - we never hear his excuse, because the camera turns away at a key moment. A perfect "Captain Haddock joins the cast in Land of Black Gold" moment there.
Sure, they wrote some nonsense for Dorn to speak on the background, but they also made sure it wasn't completely audible. Something to do with checking on local defense arrangements in the 'hood.
Klingons may well suffer from the same problem as the Chinese: too few names to effectively distinguish between people in a multi-billion population...
Then again, we get Charles Tucker III.
Timo Saloniemi
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
Well, I had a mind fart there.
The to be or not to be soliloquy is about (reputably) whether Hamlet should kill himself rather than actually save the day. Gorkon wasn't suicidal? he was full of hope for a rosy bright peaceful future.
But then, if every day is a good day to die how isn't death and tomorrow not tragically intertwined?
Well, I had a mind fart there.
The to be or not to be soliloquy is about (reputably) whether Hamlet should kill himself rather than actually save the day. Gorkon wasn't suicidal? he was full of hope for a rosy bright peaceful future.
But then, if every day is a good day to die how isn't death and tomorrow not tragically intertwined?
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
Incidentally, coincidence has given us a neat little play on words later in the soliloquy:
The enterprise in this case is the Enterprise, which the UFP and IKE are taking on a journey to the undiscovered country (an unknown future), and dread of that unknown future threatens to turn the Enterprise awry and lose the name of action.
I'm glad the title was used for 6 and not 2. Using the title for 2 would have been pointlessly pretentious: "Look, we're quoting Shakespeare! The movie is about death and Shakespeare used the phrase in connection with death! We're so intellectual!" It's a perfect title for 6, because the whole soliloquy examines the central dilemma of the film: whether to endure the status quo and suffer its familiar ills, or to take a one-way trip to an undiscovered country and face its unknown ills. Also the soliloquy is about death, the conclusion of life, and the film is the conclusion of TOS.
I'm also glad that "Second star to the right" was used to wrap up 6 and not 2. It's too playful for the end of 2. "I feel young" works much better.
Incidentally, coincidence has given us a neat little play on words later in the soliloquy:
The enterprise in this case is the Enterprise, which the UFP and IKE are taking on a journey to the undiscovered country (an unknown future), and dread of that unknown future threatens to turn the Enterprise awry and lose the name of action.
I'm glad the title was used for 6 and not 2. Using the title for 2 would have been pointlessly pretentious: "Look, we're quoting Shakespeare! The movie is about death and Shakespeare used the phrase in connection with death! We're so intellectual!" It's a perfect title for 6, because the whole soliloquy examines the central dilemma of the film: whether to endure the status quo and suffer its familiar ills, or to take a one-way trip to an undiscovered country and face its unknown ills. Also the soliloquy is about death, the conclusion of life, and the film is the conclusion of TOS.
I'm also glad that "Second star to the right" was used to wrap up 6 and not 2. It's too playful for the end of 2. "I feel young" works much better.
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
Well, no matter which of the movie titles was Shakespeare-based, such a choice would be in the grand tradition established by such classic episodes as "By Any Other Name," "The Conscience of the King," "All Our Yesterdays," and, of course, "Spock's Brain."
Well, no matter which of the movie titles was Shakespeare-based, such a choice would be in the grand tradition established by such classic episodes as "By Any Other Name," "The Conscience of the King," "All Our Yesterdays," and, of course, "Spock's Brain."
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
Ah yes. 'Spock's Brain', one of Shakespeare's most famous quotes.
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
— Troilus and Cressida, Act 5, Scene 1
What the hell is a “fardel” anyway?
“He has not so much brain as ear-wax.”
— Troilus and Cressida, Act 5, Scene 1
What the hell is a “fardel” anyway?
Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea
I'm not sure "Spock's Ear Wax" would have made a good title...
I'm not sure "Spock's Ear Wax" would have made a good title...
