Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x02 - "Disengage"

[Tosk]

Not a war crime because he warned people?

I really think you need to read up on what the definition of "War Crime" is.

As for no war going on, please, Benjamin Sisko fired a weapon of war (the Torpedo itself) with the intention of making a planet uninhabitable to the group of people who are legally living there; and they were forced to leave said Planet because of that action. That in itself is an act of War.

A war crime and an act of war are two completely different things. As far as I understand the terms, it is impossible for something to be both.

 

[Farscape One]

I'd say that some of them do.

• Atrocities or offences against...property...
• wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages
• devastation not justified by military necessity

I think this actually describes what happened.

Not a single bit of the towns or cities were damaged, nor was any property. Sisko simply made it impossible for humans to live there, but Cardassians can. Precisely what Eddington did to TWO Cardassian colonies.

And there was no devastation from Sisko... he forced them to evacuate.


And by the way, it was a military situation, or attacking and crippling two Starfleet ships doesn't count as a military action against Starfleet and the Federation? The Maquis proved to be a violent entity against the Federation and their interests, in this case maintaining the peace with the Cardassians and the DMZ.

 

[Ometiklan]

I think the Titan is a contender in most situations. It just so happens that the Shrike is so incredibly powerful that this is one of the rare situations where it isn't.

I don't really see any evidence that this is so (however you and I may wish it). From the first moment Shaw considers going toward the nebula to rescue Picard and Riker, when they only have vague, long-distance scans of the action around the Eleos, Shaw acts like the Titan is at significant risk. Despite risk being "part of the job" and not knowing anything about the Shrike at that time. Yeah, no one literally says "we are underpowered", but all the actions taken before and after indicate they are at a disadvantage.

There is no indication that the Inquiry-class starships seen in "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part II" were newly replicated. They were new ships but they had all almost certainly been constructed the same way multiple Galaxy-class starships had been constructed in the early 2360s, just at a larger scale.

Yeah, I didn't mean they actually used a replicator (though they likely used industrial/engineering replicators to create most of the components for the fleet), but just that they were able to quickly fabricate 200+ (?) ships. Riker says they are the "toughest, fastest, most powerful ship" Starfleet has ever made. This implies that they are relatively recent as newer ships with newer tech should outclass them. Yeah, there are many reasons why newer ships might not (they might be "explorers" like the new Titan, not designed as ships-of-the-line/battleships) be better, but Riker's statement argues they are new.

...corruption and criminal activity within the upper echelons of the Starfleet hierarchy strongly imply a level of institutional corruption and violation of Federation principles...

Not to focus too finely on splitting hairs on these, but many aren't examples of corruption, criminal activity, institutional corruption, or violation of principles:

• Infiltration of the highest levels of Starfleet Command by the alien parasites - totally an external force, no violations
• Commander Bruce Maddux, apparently with the support of Starfleet Command and the Daystrom Institute, deny Data's sentience and try to force Data to submit to terminal experimentation - Data is unique, not yet considered an individual, whole plot is establishing he is and recognizing it within Starfleet, as does Maddux, no violation
• Captain Picard argue that the standing precedent from Starfleet Command is to allow pre-warp sentient species to go extinct in the event of planetary natural disasters - literally, following the principles as then interpreted, no violation (though I would personally prefer the Federation to lean a little more toward the Culture's mode of active interference when needed)
• Captain Picard attempt to admonish Data for reproducing without permission - a temporary personal bias regarding the novelty of the situation, quickly resolved
• Admiral Anthony Haftel attempt to abduct Lal into Starfleet custody against the will of her father - agreed, a violation based on precedent established in MOAM
  
• Starfleet push Picard back onto regular duty less than a month after having his entire mind violated by the Borg - maybe I missed something having not watched those episodes recently, but Troi argues that Picard needs to take more time to heal and deal, i think it is more Picard pushing himself to return
• Infiltration of the Federation Diplomatic Corps by Romulan Tal Shiar agent Selok, posing as Federation Ambassador T'Pel - external force, no violation
• Systemic bullying against Lt. Reginald Barclay - again, some interpersonal issues; our heroes are less "woke" then they should be regarding non-neural-typical individuals (less than we are even now, and arguably less than they should have been even in the 90s), but it certainly wasn't systemic or institutional, Picard and Troi (the authority points here) specifically push back on it, even though Picard screws up via a Freudian slip a couple of times; i wouldn't consider this a violation
• Retired Admiral Norah Satie, who sets up a witch trial with near-impunity casting about for Romulan and other anti-Federation spies before being shut down by Picard - yeah, arguably a violation; but not one explicitly supported by anyone in authority (they didn't know Satie was "a little off" until this event, she was well respected); but could be considered because Starfleet had provided a lack of oversight until then
• Picard and Starfleet once again attempt to allow the sentient pre-warp people of Boraal II go extinct before being forced to relocate a small number of them by a Federation civilian scientist - still following the as then (and still?) current interpretation of Federation/Starfleet principles, no violation

...
And that's just TNG! I'm sorry, but the Federation that TNG paints has a lot of systemic problems! It's not a utopia in spite of Picard's rhetoric about humanity being more evolved. (Also, that's a very Human-centric way of framing a multi-species Federation.) These problems recur often enough that, frankly, they're not one-offs. But TNG gives you a tone of optimism and doesn't ask you to think deeply about whether or not these problems are symptoms of larger systemic issues in the UFP, so it feels more optimistic than it actually is.

I think that TNG approaches it that the problems in the Federation aren't systemic and that in most cases the problems that do exist are confronted and resolved to positive effect by implementing the principles of the Federation and through the enlightened actions of "humanity".

Until the writers of Trek invent or adopt some broader term than "humanity" to represent all recognized persons within the Federation (or known space), I think "humanity" is perfectly acceptable. Humanity doesn't just apply to people with human DNA, but those who exhibit the qualities of humanness.

Even DS9 didn't really go as far as examining "systemic issues". They addressed racism some, which is an issue itself within Trek, because at least within the Federation most/all racism has been eliminated (according to both "authorial claims" and as far as actual episodic presentation of racial treatments) at least within the Federation, with exceptions of some externally directed racism re: Ferengi, Klingons. I would enjoys a series that make it, at least part of, its mission to tackle systemic issues in its episodes. But I would hope they do good job of it.

Which is exactly what happens in PIC. I mean, think about it. The world of PIC starts off somewhat dark, but in the course of PIC...Textually, the Federation in PIC is working really hard to redeem itself from past mistakes and move in a more progressive direction!

I guess the things do happen, but only in the way way background.

Unfortunately, season 1 is more focused on all the dark aspects of what is happening or the dark events of the past. Only in fleeting movements is there positiveness (Clancy acknowledging her fault and sending a support fleet). The season was mostly focused on the androids, defending them or preventing the super-AIs from killing us all. Picard's sacrifice showed them that not all of humanity was biased against them and thus didn't deserve to be wiped out. All the other changes were implied (was there an actual or even defacto-ban on Romulans entering Starfleet?) or wall-papered over with a single line of dialogue (Clancy, the synth-ban).

When 99% of the season focuses on and almost celebrates the dark stuff (e.g., look at these cool fight scenes between an android and black-masked spec ops Romulans, look at this cool sword fight between Romulans) and deals with all the supposed advancements or reformations in singular moments that are fleetingly if ever impactful on the actual show, then I feel like the show didn't actually care about the "positive" stuff. Maybe that is just me wanting to be "hit over the head" with a moral a little bit more than others, but a nice moment with Picard and Soji addressing the synth ban (for example) could have been nice. But then again, they synth ban never really mattered/applied to either of them because Soji didn't know she was a synth and Picard wasn't until there wasn't a ban anymore. Maybe Jurati could have had something about getting to take back up her life's work again? Maybe she is doing that at the start of season 2? Ugh, I am not even interested in going back to find out.

See, I would argue that you're taking the events of Season One and projecting them onto the entire series...The Federation in PIC S2 basically does nothing wrong!

Yeah, there is so little actually involving Starfleet in season 2, that we don't get to really learn much about what is going on with them. The first episode of season 2 was probably my favorite of the season for what time we do get to spend in the "present" of the 25th century.

I would say that if bad stuff keeps happening again and again and again, and your narrative keeps depicting them as one-offs and doesn't ask the audience to think about whether there's a systemic issue at play, then your narrative is being more than a little dishonest to its audience.

I don't think it is dishonest. Both the text and the tone of the earlier shows were that these were not systemic issues. And if the current shows are trying to explore systemic issues, they aren't doing it well at all (in my opinion). Metatextually, fans have developed their own discussions ('badmirals') and it would be good to have a show that addresses these, but so far there isn't one. And I doubt Kurtzman/Paramount/CBS is really interested in something like that. But we can always hope. I still think a "Star Trek: West Wing" focused on systemic issues (and not politics per se) would be a great show!

"It is a story about Jean-Luc Picard leading the Federation out of darkness and into the light; you can't write the Federation as entering that light until the end of the story, because redemption is your thematic climax.

I would agree, if I thought that a Federation-redemption arc was the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, or seventh storyline in the season. I just don't see that. The primary stories are Picard and the Soji/Dadj/androids stuff. With the other main character storylines being the next most important stories. The Romulans and the synth-ban stories come in like 10th place, and only really seem to be concerned with the plot machinations given how weakly they are resolved. The XB storyline (anti-XB bigotry) isn't even addressed/resolved unless you interpret Seven being allowed to enter Starfleet as a note in that story rather than just a plot resolving decision to get Jeri Ryan's Seven on a starship crew (was it Picard's additional influence that changed Starfleet's mind or some revelation about anti-XB bias? we don't know yet, as Seven's current story has not really gotten much development). Starfleet and a potential anti-Borg bias was a subplot for season 2, but that season was such a shambles, that story point never ended up coming together as an actual point in the end. Starfleet/the Federation being redeemed just has not featured really at all.

2) Even at its darkest, PIC S1 makes it clear that the Federation between 2379 and 2399 was still a constitutional liberal democracy with numerous guaranteed rights protecting the overwhelming majority of its population, where Federation worlds lacked almost all forms of classism, racism, cisheterosexism, crime, disease, etc etc etc. We even see that in spite of anti-Romulan prejudice leading the Federation to abandon the Romulan Rescue Fleet mission, Romulan refugees live on Earth in peace and happiness.

Sure, they kept some of the 'trappings' of Star Trek (no one started forking over actual money to buy stuff; no one started driving around in fossil fuel power cars with wheels), but the tone was just not the same.
So, it's either terrible and needs a redemption storyline, or it's not, and there are just a 'few bad apples'. I still think they didn't aim for nor actually achieve a Federation redemption storyline.

I don't think either of these elements speak to the question of the Federation, because Freecloud is not a Federation planet.

My point here about the dark tone of the show, not that Freecloud was the Federation's problem as it is outside of their space.

Honestly, I don't see how Seven's vengeance against Bjayzl is morally any different from Kira's violence against Cardassian occupation officials in the Resistance -- in both situations, the protagonist (Seven or Kira) is in an environment where there is no rule of law (Cardassian-occupied Bajor or Freecloud), facing a murderous opponent who is unrepentant, who poses an ongoing threat to the lives of innocent people, and for whom there is no possibility of the law bring them to justice (Cardassian occupation forces or Bjayzl and her criminal syndicate). Yet no one claims Kira is somehow irreparably tainted by her actions.

First, I think some people would say Kira is tainted by her actions. I am not one of those people. Second, Kira's situation is dramatically different than Seven's. Kira's homeworld was occupied and enslaved by the Cardassians. Fighting back against that occupying force (even it it means harm to occupiers/collaborators who are not themselves combatants), is very different from Seven becoming a vigilante and killing someone because they committed serious crimes. Who exactly says there is no chance to bring Bjayzl to justice? Seven, Picard? I actually don't remember if they say this or if it is just implied. That Starfleet and the Federation have no shot at arresting someone who tortured and killed a Starfleet officer seems ridiculous to me. Even if that person lives outside of Federation space, even more so in lawless space, there should be lots of opportunities for Starfleet to act and bring actual justice. Seven just takes it upon herself because she was there and has a personal connection to Icheb.

DIS S1 is about the Federation going through a major war, being tested, but in the end refusing to become the genocidal, authoritarian monster it's tempted to become...

I think you mean, the Federation actively decides to commit genocide and employs an authoritarian monster to implement its decision, but is saved at the last minute by Burnham rebelling against that plan, using the threat of genocide to enact a coup and save Earth, which then end up rubber stamping afterward. But close enough, I guess?

I think those two things are completely intertwined. I do agree that the episode should have given us more info on that, but "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part II" essentially wanted to depict the Federation's redemption in the person of Jean-Luc Picard, who quite literally dies for the Federation's sins, encounters his dead ersatz son in the symbolic afterlife a la Orpheus, and then is reborn as is the Federation.

I think you got a lot more out of that story than I did. I just wish this had been the story that they actually focused on. If that is what Michal Chabon intended, that would make sense and I hear he is a great writer, but I just don't see that. I mean, he even said that he didn't have a clue as to the ending of the season and just made it up when the had to at the end. If your interpretation is correct, I guess they just didn't do a good job laying out the necessary storylines leading up to the final episodes nor a good job in actually addressing the "redemption"/"rebirth" story at the end.

I think you're projecting the tone of PIC S1 and DIS S1 onto subsequent seasons when it's really not there. Particularly PIC S2.

Very likely. The set the (ahem) "tone" with season 1. And S2, while I liked elements of it, was an absolute disaster.

I don't particularly see why they need to be "reconciled" anymore than the tone of DS9 had to be reconciled with the tone of TNG. They are all different works of art that can have divergent tones. There's no reason the Star Trek franchise cannot encompass both the redemptive storyline of PIC S1 going from darkness into light, the optimistic episodic structure of SNW, the light-hearted comedy of LD, or the we-all-have-trauma-but-we're-working-through-it tone of DIS.

I agree that different series can or should have different tones and approaches. What I don't agree on is that PIC and DIS should portray the Federation/Starfleet as pretty terrible while at total odds of the presentation of the same organizations at the same time in other shows (LDS and PRO). To me, the writers and creatives for LDS and PRO (and SNW in comparison with DIS s1) understand the correct "tone" regarding the Federation and Starfleet. They portray them as fundamentally good, with their own occasional errors, problems, and issues, but that they will be resolved and continue to better themselves. DIS (s1 in particular) and PIC (again season 1) portray so many things "wrong" that I find it hard to reconcile with everything else we have been shown in 50 years of Trek. And, again, maybe I would feel differently about PIC s1, if the redemption arc had ever actually felt like a thing they were trying to do there.

On the other hand, in real life, legal structures often apply basic principles inconsistently out of the desire to maintain unjust hierarchies. It's a thing that happens, and it happening in "Author, Author" was fairly realistic. And, it's a good example of the difference between tone and substance. The tone of "Author, Author" is extremely light, but the substance is very disturbing, since it establishes that the Federation has a huge blind spot vis-a-vis the rights of synthetic lifeforms and that this has been ongoing since "The Measure of a Man." In other words, even in the supposedly optimistic TNG and VOY, the Federation has been engaging in long-term systemic injustices. PIC is just the first show to have a season that centers that systemic injustice instead of handwaiving it as a one-off.

I guess I can see "Author, Author" could be considered to be addressing systematic issue re: the rights of non-biological beings, but I don't think think that is what they actually do or tried to do. I think at best, they are addressing that the road to acceptance of all people as "people" is a long road, advanced by individual steps. Again they do this by implication, by not advancing the Doctor's rights as far as they did Data's. Any addressing of bias as a systemic issue within the Federation is mainly done by implication via the final scene with all the EMHs doing manual labor.

I guess my main issue is with the writers of "Author, Author"; they had a "fun" concept about the Doctor and a holographic story depicting exaggerated versions of our main characters, and they had a important concept about recognizing and advancing the rights of all beings, but they didn't really address the precedent from MOAM (not within the show); the judge doesn't reference it, the characters don't reference it. It is left to the audience to assume that all the characters are aware of it (but given the track record of the Voyager writers, I am not sure they themselves were aware of the precedent) and that the writers are making a very subtle commentary about systematic bias within the Federation.

Who said there are no consequences to her psyche?

I do. It has never been referenced again in any way.

If you don't think "Stardust City Rag" addressed what any of it was trying to say about Seven's character as a person, then you weren't paying attention. Go back and re-watch her scene immediately before it. Jean-Luc might have been talking solely about the Borg, but Seven wasn't.

That will be a hard one to rewatch as it is my least favorite of the season.
Yeah, they talk about regaining their humanity ever day of their lives, but I want to see some acknowledgement about how her actions affected her afterward or didn't affect her. For me, no follow-up implies no significant change. Maybe that is a good thing, maybe it is a bad thing. Maybe there was a big effect on her, but we just have never been shown it. I want to learn about if it did or did not.

I think you are confusing the writers not wanting to hit you over the head with the Wheel of Morality with them "not being concerned about what it meant for her character."

No, I just want to find out what it meant for a character - that I enjoyed following for 4 years of VOY - to become a freelance defender and then a vigilante who decides to kill an unarmed bad guy. Did she decide she was right or wrong? Does she struggle with her actions? Did Picard ever find out or did he suspect ahead of time? Did it affect their relationship? Did the Federation find out about it? Did it affect their decision to let her into Starfleet? Or might it change things if they didn't know then, but find out now? I just want some kind of acknowledgement that it happened and if it affected the character or the situation beyond just getting revenge on one badguy.

I think it would have been (and may yet be!) interesting to see how Seven's avenging of Icheb would affect her relationship with Jean-Luc, but it's not necessary per se. It's fine for that to be a singular, contained story arc that informs our understanding of Seven without it needing to be followed up on.

I don't feel it informed me much about Seven. She was always very practical and straightforward. I guess her love for Icheb was strong enough that it pushed her into brutal vigilante territory? Is that who she is now? Is she still ok with it?
Still feels like the writers thinking "this would be an awesome action sequence" rather than "I think this would be an interesting element of Seven's character to explore". Maybe it's just that in modern Trek with their 10 episodes a season and multiple interweaving plot threads, they don't really have time to fully explore a moral and character situation like this. Maybe they have just enough time to sketch an ancillary issue for the non-main character, have it happen, and leave the conclusions up to the audience. I just don't like this storytelling much. Same things with the threads about Elnor, the XBs, and the Romulan colonies/refuges. Barely sketched, little explored, and largely dropped.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Oh, Sweet Baby Jesus... There's getting to be just way too much

around here...

 

[Kzinti]

bleh i was really hoping the rumors about picard son was untrue

 

[Macintosh]

Oh, Sweet Baby Jesus... There's getting to be just way too much

around here...

Oh I am TOTALLY stealing that gif for future reference...

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Only one answer. And a lot more questions. Oh, and a (mercifully mild) eye-scream. (As far as wacky routes for recreational drugs go, I've got this beat: I wrote a sci-fi short story about a planet where the most popular drug is a hallucinogenic SUPPOSITORY!)

Nice Goldsmith paraphrases and quotes.

 

[Qonundrum]

My two cents (or 0.022 Euros):

I hadn't seen this one before, apart from Vadik's introduction and maybe one other clip.

Starfleet folk just love that 500 year-old music. Why not use some disco and pay homage the 1979's "Buck Rogers"? (In all honesty, please, don't, unless that were a joke in Lower Decks as they get the parody and riffs done right...)

Raffi using "tech" works as she's being undercover (great subplot). Not as keen when the officers in official garb used it as I'm still too used to the 20th century shows using "technology", but in fairness I'm being fastidious as Shaw wasn't using it often enough.

Hmmm, the BS and 'pissed' didn't really do much for me compared to last episode's profanity (where it worked wonders), but the episode didn't go overboard with swearing and that's a plus. I'm still too oldsk00l, perhaps.

So Jack freely offers the people boarding his ship some free weapons and yet they don't fire or anything? That's probably the lowest moment in the episode, and yet it also shows "the many faces of neutrality" (a neat little phrase coined in Blake's 7...)

It dawned on me: Jack Crusher is Okona, done right (and on steroids!).

Jack and Shaw just steal the show at every frickin' turn. And Picard has a couple of great moments, the first being his listing the charges to Jack...

Okay, there is one other moment I didn't really like: The Titan coming out of warp - I'm too busy wondering what prevents the occupants from becoming jellified puddles of goo.

The direction and camerawork in this season are really first and and more.

Vadik - oh yeah, now she's a good villain. "Afternoon in the Sol system" does miss the tiny issue of diurnal rotation, but Mr Plummer sells the role so well and the line is probably part of the point. Plus, her dialogue is meant to make Picard squirm, right down to "synthetic flesh" (nice touch, I must say, as Vadik is trying to get under his skin (so to speak) ...)

Vadik ordering the flinging Jack's ship onto the Titan rocked. This story alone had more thought put into it than the whole of NEM.

LaForge's use of Treknobabble really hit the spot as well.

The theme of loyalty vs orders has been done in TOS before, TNG too probably, but it stands out with some depth and dimension that really hits the spot in this one.

"Sneed's expecting me" - the heavy lets her in? I'll admit, this is the sort of "DS9 on Steroids" that also hits the spot, with Raffi, Sneed figuring her out and aftermath....

Gotta admit, Worf's introduction was nothing less than AWESOME.

Did I mention yet how the interior or the Shrike also looks really cool?

Great call by Picard re: Jack's attempted escape to hand himself over... then, after the Crusher reintroduction scene (which rocked), he realizes Jack is his son.

As usual, the music continues to excel. Not bombastic, not overly loud... a mix of the new with a few classic motifs, which generally don't feel intrusive. I noticed the VGER theme for the Shike, which is interesting. The Shrike makes the sound its own, or if nothing else it at least works to set the mood proper.

Even the ubiquitous use of teal/orange isn't as bothersome as it has been for other shows. That's doubly big since I'm more invested in the dialogue and worldbuilding, and it's countered by those cityscapes in luscious use of full color.

More than the sum of its parts, the nitpicks exist but aren't really terrible.

8/10. Maybe 8.5. The season still impresses rather a lot.