Star Trek Generatios (Observations and a Question)

[PhoenixIreland]

Observations;
1. I'm sure I'm not the first to note this but....did Picard just bury Kirk under rocks and not tell anyone??? I always thought they should have included like a funeral scene back on earth for the biggest legend in the entire franchise??? maybe with the original cast, TNG cast and Sisko attending
2. I always thought it would have been good to see a scene like the on at the end of ST IV where they were introduced to the E (renamed from some other new ship that was going to be launched), maybe where they fly up to another Galaxy class ship then pass it and out pops the sovereign class E, in Earth Spacedock
always loved that station...

image

3. I heard somewhere of an early script where Kirk was to die in charge of the battle bridge of the D after the saucer had separated to get away from the Duras Bird of Prey and giving it time to escape with the civilian's? anyone else heard of that? I think they had redone the timetable so that the planet was saved first before the battle and the saucer separated not to avoid a breach but to get the civilans away from all the harm the Duras disrupter's were doing to the civilian areas, I can only assume in this version the D was actually fighting back..
4. Anyone see the deleted see the deleted scene where the shuttle lands on the planet and Picard asks Worf and Geordi if there had been "some trouble with the klingons" when he notices burns on the hull? I really think they should have left that in.
5. Why was the bridge and everywhere else so damm dark??????
6. I only noticed this a few days ago, I stopped watchin ST years ago when I was a kid and only started again last year, I pulled out some old toys from my parents attic with a view to seeing if I could sell them, and noticed Picard and La Forge figures had a starfleet uniform that looked like something out of Babylon 5 only with one red and one orange (for Picard and LaForge repsectivly) I thought they looked much better than the DS9 jumpsuits. I looked it up they were going to use them but never did and nobody told Playmates and they were made anyway
7. They should have added that third naccele from AGT and that phaser cannon would have come in handy during the battle.

 

[Michael]

1. I'm sure I'm not the first to note this but....did Picard just bury Kirk under rocks and not tell anyone??? I always thought they should have included like a funeral scene back on earth for the biggest legend in the entire franchise??? maybe with the original cast, TNG cast and Sisko attending

Yeah, and Captain Janeway, the Traveler, Q, the Klingon chancellor, Edith Keeler (per Guardian of Forever ), the Borg, Mirror-Kirk, Sarek, Surak, Sela, Selar, Kahless, Flint, Kai Winn, T'Pau, T'Pol, Seven of Nine, Leeta, Archer, Trip, Grand Nagus Zek, Lore, Morn, Morn's complete family, Dr. Pulaski, Dr. Miranda Jones, Dr. Ann Mulhall, Chris Pine, T'Pring, both Borg Queens, Weyoun, Shran, Brunt, Garak, Isaac Newton, Gary Mitchell, Finnegan, that blonde, David Marcus, Captain Sheridan, Delenn, Darth Vader and Darth Maul!

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SO COOL!

 

[PhoenixIreland]

Well I never liked him as a character at all but since so many fans seem to give him this demigod status (that he does not deserve from what I've seen) even some thinking he should never have died....it would have been nice to have a send off better than burying him under rocks and not mentioning it to anyone.
(I said Sisko because he seemed to share the legend view of Kirk)

 

[idreamedmusic]

^ Agreed. On the better send-off, not the demigod status
It did seem weird that Picard would just bury him like that (and standing up?) and not mention anything to anyone, at least as per canon. A decent burial and some sort of acknowledgment of what what Kirk had done (overall, not just the movie) may have provided more of a closure.

 

[Haytil]

1. I'm sure I'm not the first to note this but....did Picard just bury Kirk under rocks and not tell anyone??? I always thought they should have included like a funeral scene back on earth for the biggest legend in the entire franchise??? maybe with the original cast, TNG cast and Sisko attending

I'm sure he told someone, and I'm sure either the body was transplanted or a memorial service was held back on Earth. (Shatner's book makes a strong point about the inhabitants of the system stumbling upon it and finding evidence of intelligent alien life would violate the Prime Directive, so the Enterprise wreckage and the body would all have to be removed).

As for people like Sisko attending - why would they? The galaxy's a big place, and they wouldn't recall all of Starfleets captains and commanders for a funeral or memorial service. People have jobs to do, and it's not as if Sisko or anyone actually knew Kirk.

I mean, when a President dies, you'd expect a lot of high-ranking people to show up. But not every admiral and commander in the armed forces.

2. I always thought it would have been good to see a scene like the on at the end of ST IV where they were introduced to the E (renamed from some other new ship that was going to be launched), maybe where they fly up to another Galaxy class ship then pass it and out pops the sovereign class E, in Earth Spacedock
always loved that station...

On the other hand, not having to rush a design for a new starship in time for the release of "Generations" meant they could spend more money and time developing a more detailed, more well-thought out version.

Besides, it'd be kind of tired to see the exact same sort of ending as a previous Trek movie.

3. I heard somewhere of an early script where Kirk was to die in charge of the battle bridge of the D after the saucer had separated to get away from the Duras Bird of Prey and giving it time to escape with the civilian's? anyone else heard of that?

No, I hadn't. I don't remember that being on the DVD commentary either.

4. Anyone see the deleted see the deleted scene where the shuttle lands on the planet and Picard asks Worf and Geordi if there had been "some trouble with the klingons" when he notices burns on the hull? I really think they should have left that in.

I didn't see that, but it doesn't sound like it would've served the plot or characters very much.

5. Why was the bridge and everywhere else so damm dark??????

The ambient lighting was dimmed and more consoles and seats were placed in the background to make the bridge look more like a functioning command center for a giant starship, and less like a brightly lit living room. I believe they said that that was what they always had wanted the bridge to look like on the series, but didn't have the budget or time to do it.

I think it's a very nice effect and makes the bridge look much more professional. In fact, the lighting of the whole movie is particularly good - that's not something I usually notice in a film.

6. I only noticed this a few days ago, I stopped watchin ST years ago when I was a kid and only started again last year, I pulled out some old toys from my parents attic with a view to seeing if I could sell them, and noticed Picard and La Forge figures had a starfleet uniform that looked like something out of Babylon 5 only with one red and one orange (for Picard and LaForge repsectivly) I thought they looked much better than the DS9 jumpsuits. I looked it up they were going to use them but never did and nobody told Playmates and they were made anyway

Do you have any pictures or know where I can find them? I've read about this before, but I've only been able to find pictures of the figures AFTER they've been painted over with the standard TNG uniform paintjobs (you can tell they were supposed to be different based on the mold).

7. They should have added that third naccele from AGT and that phaser cannon would have come in handy during the battle.

The AGT Enterprise was 25 years in the future - this Enterprise was, at most, a few months after the finale. It wouldn't make sense to show any drastic changes as far as the timeline goes. (That kind of technology hadn't been developed yet, and even if it had, it takes months to perform such a drastic overhaul of ships systems).

 

[Nebusj]

I'm sure he told someone, and I'm sure either the body was transplanted or a memorial service was held back on Earth. (Shatner's book makes a strong point about the inhabitants of the system stumbling upon it and finding evidence of intelligent alien life would violate the Prime Directive, so the Enterprise wreckage and the body would all have to be removed).

It's not really that strong a point. Planets are humongous things; the chance that the civilization on the neighboring planet might find either before the objects would be unrecognizable is mighty slender. Removing classified technology that rival galactic powers might try to scavenge from the Enterprise hull is defensible; fretting that the Weekian society will be destroyed by a fossilized sonic shower unit is not.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

The reason I say they'd let sisko attend is because of his big war hero status not because hes a captain

A fuctioning command centre would surely need the crew to be able to see their own hands in front of them? not so dark it looked like an XXX section of a video store

I'll try to find the images of those uniforms I'm 90% sure I saw cartoonish pics of them online somwhere

 

[Haytil]

I'm sure he told someone, and I'm sure either the body was transplanted or a memorial service was held back on Earth. (Shatner's book makes a strong point about the inhabitants of the system stumbling upon it and finding evidence of intelligent alien life would violate the Prime Directive, so the Enterprise wreckage and the body would all have to be removed).

It's not really that strong a point. Planets are humongous things; the chance that the civilization on the neighboring planet might find either before the objects would be unrecognizable is mighty slender. Removing classified technology that rival galactic powers might try to scavenge from the Enterprise hull is defensible; fretting that the Weekian society will be destroyed by a fossilized sonic shower unit is not.

Veridian-IV hosted a pre-industrial society of 230 million. Given that large a population, chances are they'd have broken into their industrial age pretty soon. So it's not a stretch to suggest they'd be in space (pre-warp) within a few hundred years.

Veridian-III (the planet Kirk was buried on) was an M-Class world, and neighboring planet of Veridian IV. So if the inhabitants of Veridian-IV began exploring their system, they'd probably go there straightaway.

Kirk was buried in the desert, meaning his body would've been fairly well-preserved - his bones would certainly be in fairly good shape.

It IS a big world, but the Prime Directive doesn't allow you to take any chances, and in this case it's not like it'd have been hard to clean things up.

Just imagine if Mars was Earth-like and we began exploring it right away (instead of taking forever like we are now). What would happen if we found the remains of a dead humanoid with clothing and insignia?

The reason I say they'd let sisko attend is because of his big war hero status not because hes a captain

Sisko isn't a war hero at this point. I don't even think first contact had been established with the Dominion.

And if it had, don't you think he'd rather be on DS9, ready for action, rather than taking a vacation to go to a funeral?

A fuctioning command centre would surely need the crew to be able to see their own hands in front of them? not so dark it looked like an XXX section of a video store

I think you're exaggerating about how dark it was. It was DARKER, sure, but not DARK.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

Ahh yes, major timeline confusion there!

It was way too dark, it would have been fine with being slightly dimmer than TNG it would have at least shown us the new bridge better

 

[CorporalClegg]

^
I totally disagree. In fact, I'd argue it's better that way.

With darker ambient lighting, the back-lit LCARS screens would be much easier to read.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Just FYI, PhoenixIreland, hotlinking is not allowed here at TrekBBS, so I changed your graphic to a link. If that was your own website, you can change it back, otherwise please either post links or save the graphics to your own image hosting service (i.e., Photobucket). It saves us from getting cranky letters from other folks' ISPs about stolen bandwidth.

Thanks!

 

[Nebusj]

Veridian-IV hosted a pre-industrial society of 230 million. Given that large a population, chances are they'd have broken into their industrial age pretty soon. So it's not a stretch to suggest they'd be in space (pre-warp) within a few hundred years.

Assuming that Earth is a typical case and can be used as a model for Veridian IV -- and we don't know, but in the absence of any other data I'll use what we have -- then Veridian IV has about the population that the Earth had around the year 1.

Now, even if Mars were a much more attractive and tempting planet -- for analogy -- I can't see how this would affect the development of interplanetary travel abilities until the 20th century. Maybe it makes an Apollo-type program a little more tempting, and makes it more likely to continue past reaching the Moon to a Mars landing. But I still don't see that happening, for Earth, before about 1980. It's something like two thousand years before the Veridians make their first interplanetary mission.

And it's not enough to make one landing. The Enterprise remains are maybe the size of a baseball stadium somewhere on the entire land mass of the planet, and buried by twenty centuries of forest growth. Kirk's skeleton may not be quite so overgrown, but it's also a much smaller thing to spot. They won't be found, not until there's been a lot of development of the planet and exploration has got pretty far advanced.

Pulling again to Earth as a parallel: Australia has in the past few decades become a major source of metals. It's not that any great advance in technology has come to its aid; it's just that it's only recently, after about 250 years of industrialized occupation, that anyone has bothered to look. And that's with a relatively huge population compared to what could travel interplanetary flights before you invent the sorts of magic space drives that Star Trek is rich in. If Australia can go 250 years without huge resources being noticed by the European settlers, how long are a tiny and utterly unremarkable set of buried ruins going to go unnoticed?

 

[Haytil]

I think you're missing my point. My point was that there's not such a bad chance that Veridian III's population would discover some evidence of the Enterprise or Kirk's presence on Veridian IV before they develop warp technology. Whether it would take a few hundred years or a few thousand is irrelevant.

 

[Timo]

I think it hugely unlikely to begin with that Picard would have buried Kirk under those rocks.

1) Remember how Kirk died? He did it like he always thought he would - alone, standing on the bridge. Significantly, he ended up becoming one with that bridge: as he died, he was entangled with half a ton of steel at the bottom of a cliff. It just isn't plausible that Picard could have pulled his body out of that mess and hauled it all the way to the top of that cliff, with much of the way consisting of a near-vertical ladder anchored in the rock. A fireman in the prime of his youth couldn't have done it; Picard was nearly seventy at that point.

2) The pile of rocks was way too small to be a tomb anyway. At most, Picard might have hacked off Kirk's head and buried that in the little crack atop the cliff. But his uniform wasn't drenched in blood as it would after such a "service".

No, Kirk's body must remain at the bottom of the cliff as the shuttle arrives. Or then Picard cremated it with Soran's phaser, to keep history from finding out about the little bout of time travel. And the cairn atop the cliff must be but a memorial, perhaps later to be knocked over by an overzealous PD sanitation team, perhaps left for the Veridians to wonder about.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[PhoenixIreland]

Just FYI, PhoenixIreland, hotlinking is not allowed here at TrekBBS, so I changed your graphic to a link. If that was your own website, you can change it back, otherwise please either post links or save the graphics to your own image hosting service (i.e., Photobucket). It saves us from getting cranky letters from other folks' ISPs about stolen bandwidth.

Thanks!

Sorry didn't realize, no problem!

Good point Timo!
Maybe the shuttle took him off, I dunno why theyd not mention it at all, doubt any temporal prime directive would be broken here.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

EDITING ERROR

 

[PhoenixIreland]

On the other hand, not having to rush a design for a new starship in time for the release of "Generations" meant they could spend more money and time developing a more detailed, more well-thought out version.

They could easily have designed it in time,

Besides, it'd be kind of tired to see the exact same sort of ending as a previous Trek movie.

True, I dunno about an identical scene but some into to the new ship would have been nice.

I was only in late primary school at the time I think so I don't remember, but it seemed nasty to leave people hanging over weither there would be a new enterprise at all, was there any doubt at the time? that there would be an E?

The AGT Enterprise was 25 years in the future - this Enterprise was, at most, a few months after the finale. It wouldn't make sense to show any drastic changes as far as the timeline goes. (That kind of technology hadn't been developed yet, and even if it had, it takes months to perform such a drastic overhaul of ships systems

No Riker said they tried to decommission here 5 years ago, so 20 years into the future, if they were going to do that its safe to assume the upgrades were not recent as they'd not bother upgrading a ship that they were about to get rid of

 

[Kpnuts]

1. I'm sure I'm not the first to note this but....did Picard just bury Kirk under rocks and not tell anyone??? I always thought they should have included like a funeral scene back on earth for the biggest legend in the entire franchise??? maybe with the original cast, TNG cast and Sisko attending

Yeah, and Captain Janeway, the Traveler, Q, the Klingon chancellor, Edith Keeler (per Guardian of Forever ), the Borg, Mirror-Kirk, Sarek, Surak, Sela, Selar, Kahless, Flint, Kai Winn, T'Pau, T'Pol, Seven of Nine, Leeta, Archer, Trip, Grand Nagus Zek, Lore, Morn, Morn's complete family, Dr. Pulaski, Dr. Miranda Jones, Dr. Ann Mulhall, Chris Pine, T'Pring, both Borg Queens, Weyoun, Shran, Brunt, Garak, Isaac Newton, Gary Mitchell, Finnegan, that blonde, David Marcus, Captain Sheridan, Delenn, Darth Vader and Darth Maul!

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SO COOL!

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Alas poor Jim, I knew him Generatio.