Star Trek Beyond In Prime Universe

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by USS Excelsior, Sep 20, 2018.

  1. USS Excelsior

    USS Excelsior Commodore Commodore

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    Since the villain started from the Enterprise era the movie incident probably would have taken place in the prime universe as well although the TOS Enterprise 5 year mission didn’t start yet at the time so maybe another starship and crew took him on instead, and probably succeeded although maybe with different tactics.
     
  2. USS Triumphant

    USS Triumphant Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Possibly. But, maybe not, since TOS Starfleet never seemed to have the tech to build a station like Yorktown OR to put it in another galaxy. That other ship and crew in the Prime might have been after the development of Slipstream - so late 24th/early 25th century - by which point Krall might have been gone as a threat, and the story would have been about dealing with his aftermath.
     
  3. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    Okay.

    Was there a particular aspect of this you wanted to present for other people to discuss... a topic or at least direction in which to point the conversation... or is it basically "this thought popped into my head — making it into a quick blog post, over and out"?
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    For all we know, in the Prime timeline, the Federation may never have expanded in that direction. Leaving Altamid and Edison/Krall lingering forever.
     
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  5. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Maybe. A theory exists amongst some fans that the series Enteprise isn't a part of the prime universe, possible created by the events of the movie First Contact.

    This isn't embraced by all fans of course.

    There's also the history of Balthazar Edison shown briefly on screen that doesn't easily jib with what was seen on ENT.
    Or Starfleet hadn't traveled to that part of the galaxy yet, no space station and no mission to Krall's planet.

    Another (eg Klingons) species could have travel to his planet, whose shields could handle his attack, they backtracked to his base and bombarded it from orbit, killing Krall.
     
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  6. USS Excelsior

    USS Excelsior Commodore Commodore

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    Enterprise is certainly part of the TNG universe because of TATV, and TOS because of the Defiant.

    Edison was probably on Enterprise since the only MACOs to fight the Xindi was on Enterprise which he previously did.

    The prime USS Franklin would have crashed on that same planet, but it’s not known of course if the TOS Federation ever expanded there.
     
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  7. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Commodore Commodore

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    earth...but when?...spock?
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  8. David cgc

    David cgc Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    I'm a little surprised they haven't done a Prime-verse version of Beyond in Star Trek Online yet (doubtless with the Drone fleet being left behind by a renegade group of Iconians who allied with the Borg or some such damn thing). Likewise, I figure sooner or later one of the novels in the prime timeline will have a take on Krall. The Kelvin-Timeline comic books did enough adaptations of TOS episodes, it'd be only fair to do an PT adaptation of Beyond. Maybe with Discovery, or one of the book-only crews, or have the encounter happen in the TNG era. Anything is possible!
     
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  9. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Certainly ST Beyond is a thing waiting to happen in any universe - that is, there are no timeline-specific showstoppers there. Vast armies of drone laborers exist in the middle of a rubble field where few people go. Those who do go don't generally appear to be able to get out again. So the drones were probably capturing trespassers even before Edison came along and told them to do his nefarious bidding. And there'd always be an Edison there, somebody who doesn't like being stuck and manages to commandeer the drones and their tech. Which apparently necessarily includes the vampire tech that keeps the user alive forever but costs not just an arm and a leg but endless heaps of those, plus the user's soul. Mayhem then necessarily ensues.

    That the Edison-assumed would lash out against the Federation specifically is not necessary. Sooner or later, the Federation would become a target anyway. A stopover at Yorktown isn't a vital plot element, either. The one thing that might go differently in the different universes is whether our villain would bother to seek out the pieces of the Abornath weapon or not. But that McGuffin wasn't all that crucial in the end - the drone armies alone would have been a viable threat. And of course any set of heroes could go against any villain there, with or without Abornath.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Commodore Commodore

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    I don't see how this follows from the movie at all. When was there any indication that anyone was ever trapped on the planet for any reason other than Edison and his crew attacking them? Keeping in mind that the Franklin itself was thrown through some unkown space phenomenon and appears to have crash landed for reasons not related to any kind of attack. (At the very least, the Franklin is never mentioned as being attacked and considering what the swarm was capable of doing to the Enterprise, the Franklin is obviously far too intact to have suffered an even remotely similar event)
     
  11. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The drones were abandoned on that planet ages ago. What possible reason would there be for people not going in before Edison did, when people clearly keep going in after Edison does?

    Yet the people necessarily preceding Edison haven't turned Altamid into a known quantity. Something still keeps the place a mystery, and it clearly isn't the rubble field, because plenty of folks get in through that and thus should also get out.

    Edison is disadvantaged in having his ship crash, or at least be incapable of flying out again. Other people arriving before him, in more advanced and non-malfunctioning ships not thrown around by wormholes, would not be, so something must have screwed them. Something else? Or just more of the same? The drones are adept at taking lifepods down to the planet intact; they could have been responsible for the soft and level landing of the Franklin, too, and for subsequent blocking of takeoff. But the ship could have landed for any number of reasons. We don't need to streamline everything into a single process. But we do need the process that keeps arrivals from departing before Edison starts influencing the events.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  12. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Commodore Commodore

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    People visiting Altamid of their own free will isn't shown or referenced in the movie at all. Before OR after Edison. Jaylah explicitly says that Krall and his people are 'The reason why you are here. Why we are all here.' And her story pretty clearly paints a picture of Krall attacking her ship, taking her people prisoner and holding them indefinitely for use as fuel for the vampire/life extending machine. We don't know if her ship was even in the nebula of its own free will, or whether Krall has long made a habit of luring people where he wants them. For that matter, we have no actual confirmation her ship was attacked at Altamid at all. The Swarm has a long range and is fully capable of 'collecting' escape pods. There's nothing in the movie to suggest that there's any sort of common traffic through this place.

    Also, even if there were common traffic through the system, it doesn't follow that the inactive swarm technology on the surface would be easily detectable without landing and exploring the planet. For all we know, Krall and his people needed decades to discover and control the swarm.
     
  13. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Altamid's surface is full of ships and their crews. These ships and people arrived at Altamid. If they were free to leave Altamid, there would be no mystery of Altamid. And their arrival was not affected one iota by Edison. Only their departure was.

    If we insist that only Edison could prevent their departure, there could be no mystery of Altamid, because people would be arriving and departing in the centuries and millennia before the 2160s. After all, even if you ignore all those other ships such as Jaylah's and invent some sort of a separate story for them, Kirk did it, with minimal prompting and certainly no help whatsoever from Edison - and had no trouble believing the cover story of the agent who also claimed to have done it.

    How could he lure in people from the outside? He sent an agent to lure in Kirk, acting on intel that Kirk had what he wanted. But should we think he sent agents out every time he felt like he needed a snack? If so, why was the agent sent to lure in Kirk the first-ever such agent the UFP learned about?

    Except for the fact that there are all those ships and people down there. Nothing in the movie suggests "luring", either.

    But that solves nothing - because if Altamid were accessible and harmless, it would be even less a mystery to the UFP.

    We are presented with the classic Great Barrier problem here. For some reason, the UFP firmly believes that flying through the rubble nebula and back is extremely dangerous. We subsequently see our heroes and villains achieve it with relative ease. Why, then, did the UFP mistakenly think the rubble would pose a danger? There must be something else, something inside that eats ships and probes. And it can't be Edison, because he and the Feds are newcomers here; locals like Fibonans and Teenaxi haven't made Altamid a non-mystery, either, despite having accessed the Abornath and whatnot.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  14. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Commodore Commodore

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    This is pure speculation. And there IS no 'mystery of Altamid'. Altamid is just a planet where a bunch of people are trapped because Eddison shot them down. Nothing in the movie ever suggests this is in any way some kind of known 'mysterious' place that people want to explore.

    Distress signals? Mimicking intriguing readings? There's plenty of stuff we've seen before in Star Trek that could easily draw in anyone passing close to the nebula. He sent an extra lure to Kirk because Kirk wasn't going anywhere near the nebula on his own.

    We see like a few dozen people at most outside Krall's power, not many more inside it. And a handful of ships, which could just as easily have been captured and brought back for spare parts.

    You have completely and totally misinterpreted what the movie says about the nebula. There is no 'mystery' or 'extreme danger'. The only thing that is said is that the nebula is uncharted (and also that Yorktown is brand new, ie, this whole region is only just recently being explored by the Federation). And that its particles are dense enough to cause navigation problems for most starfleet ships (and to interfere with long range scans and long range communications), but the Enterprise's state of the art navigation equipment should be (and subsequently is) perfectly capable of navigating it without issue. The name Altamid is never even mentioned until they actually arrive there (by Krall's agent) and it is not recognized by anyone else in any way.

    There is also no indication at all that the Fibonans and Teenaxi are anywhere near the nebula. (Obviously they're in the same overarching region, or Enterprise would have stopped somewhere other than Yorktown, but that's it.)
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Much less so than Edison "luring" his victims to the place.

    Except for the direct statements to that effect?

    Kirk is supposed to be the first-ever party known to UFP to venture into the rubble nebula. This supposedly before anybody ever hears of Altamid or crashed ships or whatnot - else why is Kirk assigned to Yorktown, a station placed right next to the nebula (i mean a walking distance!) and therefore absolutely necessarily existing because of the nebula, in a ship that uniquely is supposed to be capable of braving the nebula?

    But the UFP is aware of no such thing. The mystery of Altamid is not that it's sending out mystery signals. It's that nobody, to the best knowledge of the UFP, has been there or can tell what lies within the nebula. And this is impossible if nobody inside is eating ships, because we clearly see getting in is no ordeal whatsoever.

    Except for already being in the nebula. Or twenty paces from it, which is the same thing.

    And we see Krall's hunger. The guy is snacking on Kirk's crew like crazy - at the minimum demonstrated rate of six people within the adventure, he must have been "luring in" tens of thousands since the 2160s at the very least.

    Nothing in the movie suggests that Krall would be taking ships in sparingly, or that there would be very few of them.

    Oh, I think it's vice versa. The nebula is up front and in your face in the movie - an immense presence that drives not just the whole adventure but is also the center of Starfleet interests there. They have built a giant space station right next to it, out of all the places in the universe. They have yet to properly survey it, but an effort is ongoing with the Magellan probes. If they could just Google the contents, none of this would happen.

    Yet great emphasis is placed on the nebula being no obstacle in the end. It cannot stop Edison from mounting his crusade. It doesn't slow down Edison's old ship, either. It is not quoted as a factor in the fates of Jaylah and her family, or those other castaways. Heck, it's not even claimed to be the reason of the fake crash of "Kalara" and her ship.

    Yet nobody knows of Altamid. The place is very much a mystery, central to the movie. To miss that is to miss the entire story.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Commodore Commodore

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    Altamid is not a 'mystery'. It's a planet inside an uncharted nebula. It was previously unknown because it's in uncharted space. The nebula is uncharted because the Federation technology that makes it navigable for the Enterprise is brand new, and the Enterprise is the only ship in the region that has that technology aboard. The station is brand new, suggesting that the Federation only arrived in the area recently and that there is therefore no reason to assume they've even talked to anyone else about what is or isn't inside it.

    All of this is stated directly in the movie. Please produce even a single quote from the film that suggests in any way that the nebula is a unique mystery or a major danger in and of itself.

    As for how close the station appeared to be to the nebula, the abrams films have a problem with perspective. Unless you think Q'onos is literally within walking distance of the Federation border, it's pretty clear that objects are farther away than they appear. The station personnel also explicitly refers to attempting 'long range scans' on the inside of the nebula, so, therefore, not right next door.
     
  17. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's what I've always assumed, as well. Edison could easily have been one of the MACOS under Major Hayes' command. Probably a non-com who received a battlefield commission as an officer after Hayes' death (as far as we know, Hayes was initially the only MACO officer on the ship - which is odd, in and of itself, since a Major should have at least had a Lieutenant serving as his XO).

    Another galaxy? :confused: There's nothing in the film that suggests that.

    As for Yorktown itself: The crew of the USS Kelvin must have taken detailed scans of the Narada (in ST09) and thus got their hands on a fair amount of advanced future tech. This is a ready-made explanation for all of the reasons why the Kelvin timeline looks so much more advanced than the prime timeline. Yorktown Station would be just another example of this.

    Indeed. Edison's ultimate fate in the prime timeline is pretty much an open book. Some of his victims, such as Jaylah's family, are probably common to both timelines. But since Edison Prime never stumbled across the Enterprise, we have no idea what eventually happened to him.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
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  18. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    According to ENT Daniels, the Xindi attacking Earth was never meant to happen so the ENT we see is not the ENT history of TOS Prime which is the in universe reason why we never heard of a Captain Archer from anyone lol
    So Prime Edison never developed xenophobic tendencies, he did his duty in the Romulan war and then retired to Asgard.
     
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  19. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Why should we assume that the history Daniels remembers IS that of the prime timeline?

    On the contrary. I find it very likely that Edison was always like that. Indeed, I believe that he was a part of, or at least sympathized with, the Terra Prime movement.

    It would explain why he was so incensed at having to "break bread with the enemy" - ordinarily, a dedicated soldier like Edison would realize the importance of following orders, so if he is ordered to make peace with those he used to fight against, it is his place to shut his trap and do what he's told. Because that's just what happens when wars end - oftentimes we ARE obligated to make peace with our enemies. That's just the way it is. After wars end, we have to pick up the pieces and move on. The fact that Edison was so against doing this, speaks volumes about his character. He didn't WANT the war to end.

    The simple fact is, Edison was so fixated on fighting aliens (i.e. anyone who wasn't human) that he refused to accept that the war was over. His hatred of all non-human life festered within him and ultimately caused his downfall.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
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  20. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Commodore Commodore

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    According to Daniels, Archer is supposed to be a famous captain and instrumental in founding the Federation even in the timeline without the Xindi attack, so it's not really an explanation for no one ever talking about him.