Star Trek #8: Black Fire by Sonni Cooper

[Damian]

This was an interesting book that I'm not sure how much I liked. First it seems like one of those books that seemed to go with the idea that there was some in between mission between the original series and TMP. It starts off with a bang. The Enterprise is crippled, the bridge destroyed and they have to separate the ship (in this case, they do the reverse, escape in the drive section and abandon the saucer). Kirk and Spock are seriously injured, Kirk is out of it for a period of time. Spock is injured in his back and McCoy is unable to remove a piece of metal from his back for a while. Spock believe it is sabotage and along with Scott, he steals a ship and tries to find the source of the sabotage. They are then captured, help prisoner by the Tomarii along with Klingons and Romulans. They make an uneasy alliance and are used as cannon fodder basically. The female leader of the Tomarii takes an interest in Spock, treats him like a pet almost, then she apparently falls in love with him.

Ok, meanwhile the Enterprise is reattached and repaired, a new bridge module is installed, Chekov is promoted to lieutenant and is put in charge of weapons and security (I guess as a nod to TMP), and Kirk, unaware Spock and Scott are missing, is shocked to find a new engineer, first officer and science officer. Eventually Kirk finds the same clues as Spock and he manages to rescue Spock and Scott (Spock had tried to kill himself so that Scotty would finally try to escape, since he refused to leave without Spock). Spock is arrested for stealing a shuttle, then, when he fulfills a promise to notify the Romulans and Klingons of the Tomarii threat without authorization, is also charged with treason. He offers no defense, is convicted and sent to a prison. Spock is abused there and befriended by a Romulan pirate. He eventually escapes with the Romulan, seems to make a new home with the Romulan pirates and he and the Romulan Pirates create a sort of mythology of 'Black Fire' where they would dress the same, use the same style ship to confuse others. Then they end up on Romulus where Spock is arrested there and tried for the stealing of the cloaking devise in "The Enterprise Incident" but his Romulan friend, who turns out to be an officer, vouches for him and Spock is made a sub-commander on his ship. Then they join with the Enterprise to try to stop the Tomarii (remember them). I won't spoil the end.

Memory-Alpha lists the year as 2270, but honestly, it's hard to place this book. It doesn't fit with the 5YM time frame, nor the movie era as we now know it. The book came out in 1983, and at that time the amount of time between the original series and TMP wasn't really set in stone. I briefly flirted with the idea that maybe this was between the TV series and the animated series, since the bridge looks a bit different there, but dismissed that almost immediately. The uniforms changes (Kirk is noted to have a new gray uniform), and there is nothing that coincides with the animated series here. And at that time the animated series wasn't give serious thought.

But there is a lot going on here. I'll give Cooper kudos for going out on a limb here. Spock basically is sent to prison, then he becomes a pirate, then a member of the Romulan military. It's a lot different than other novels of the era. The plot meanders though. The Tomarii seem to be a focus for a while, then they disappear for a significant period of time in the novel before returning. And the conclusion is a bit sudden (though I started suspecting the conclusion about 3/4 of the way through). The prison Spock is sent is over-crowded and the fact that Spock is bullied and the guards seem to enjoy it remind you more of Rura Penthe than a Federation prison. This seems inconsistent with how the Federation is depicted, even in this earlier period. Also, it's not exactly clear why McCoy took so long to remove the metal from Spock's back. He is left paralyzed on the Tomarii homeworld until he is rescued.

The book does bring up something that would be a major plot point in Generations, that is trilithium. Scott discovers it and notes it is much more powerful than dilithium (consistent with what we see in Generations, though it's logical to assume being that it is tri- instead of di- that it would be more powerful). Just an interesting aside I picked up on.

The novel is also set up unlike any others I've read during that period. There are the main chapters like normal, then they are divided into subchapters numbered 1 through 4, 5 and even 6. I had read this novel years ago, and completely forgot about it. I remembered nothing of it from this re-read.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Loved this one. I also love the parody in Prime Directive where McCoy adopts the pirate persona... Black Ire

The trilithium stuff also acts as a set-up for Dreadnought!, where IIRC the Dreadnought's transwarp drive uses trilithium.

 

[Therin of Andor]

"Black Fire" was a long time coming, the previous original novel being eight months earlier, with only the ST II novelization between them. I asked a friend in USA to chase it up for me and airmail it, as the books were taking at least three months to arrive Down Under by seafreight, even for the specialist SF bookshops.

I think the fun of having it earlier than my local Trek friends increased my enjoyment. It was a rollicking, escapist adventure. The weird thing for me was that I had written my first fanfic not long before, and it even won an award. There is absolutely no way Sonni Cooper could have seen my story - and I assume it was written much earlier than mine - but the amazing coincidence was that the subplot of "Black Fire" parallelled my story in at least 13 points. Including Spock being replaced on the Enterprise by Acting First Officer Thorin (but Acting First Officer Therin in my fanfic). The cosmic consciousness.

 

[Christopher]

This was an interesting book that I'm not sure how much I liked.

It's a wild ride, a love-it-or-hate-it kind of book. If you get in the right mindset and don't take it seriously, it can be a lot of fun. But it's possibly the most fanfictiony Trek story ever published professionally, though it has stiff competition in the Marshak-Culbreath novels and Killing Time.

First it seems like one of those books that seemed to go with the idea that there was some in between mission between the original series and TMP.

A lot of people seem to interpret it that way today, but it never came across that way to me. Sure, there's a partial refit and new uniforms, but the circumstances don't fit TMP at all, nor does the uniform description, really. It's more just a transitional period than a distinct mission per se.

And at that time the animated series wasn't give serious thought.

It depended on the author. A lot of writers were unfamiliar with it since its availability was limited, but there was no consistent policy about it. It was referenced in some novels, particularly those from authors who'd written for it -- for instance, David Gerrold's The Galactic Whirlpool references Arex and M'Ress, and Howard Weinstein's The Covenant of the Crown references his own "The Pirates of Orion."

The plot meanders though.

I've often wondered if the novel was a compilation of a whole series of novella-length fanzines, since it feels like four or five different stories in a serial arc.

The book does bring up something that would be a major plot point in Generations, that is trilithium. Scott discovers it and notes it is much more powerful than dilithium (consistent with what we see in Generations, though it's logical to assume being that it is tri- instead of di- that it would be more powerful). Just an interesting aside I picked up on.

That doesn't make any sense at all, though. For one thing, dilithium doesn't generate power, it just stores or channels it. For another, there's no reason why having a third lithium atom in the molecular compound would multiply its "power" -- chemistry doesn't work that way. H-three-O isn't one and a half times as wet as H-two-O (although it is more acidic).

 

[Damian]

But it's possibly the most fanfictiony Trek story ever published professionally, though it has stiff competition in the Marshak-Culbreath novels and Killing Time.

I do give Sonni Cooper (I'm not sure, is Sonni a male or female author?) credit for thinking outside the box. This story takes a major character on a significant story arc and involves other significant changes (like the new bridge and uniforms) that books usually just don't get into (partly because in general you have to put the pieces back at the end usually).

For some reason, it did remind me at times of "Killing Time", esp. Kirk and Spock's friendship, though without any homo-erotic overtones this time. And it seemed to have a bit of that other-worldly quality about it, everything seemed a bit off (which isn't always a bad thing).

It's more just a transitional period than a distinct mission per se

Perhaps a better way to put it. It's not exactly clear. Like I said, Memory-Alpha places it in 2370, but that's probably mainly a default. It seems post-5YM, but pre-TMP. This novel doesn't actually really fit the existing Star Trek timeline as we know it today. I do think Cooper was thinking of a transition period before TMP (Chekov being promoted and put in charge of weapons/security seemed to be a nod in that direction). But it definitely does not seem like a post-TMP novel either.

The book also seems to cover a significant period of time (I'd say at least several months). The stardates focus around 5000-6000, but that doesn't really help narrow it down since Stardate usages at that time weren't consistent.

I've often wondered if the novel was a compilation of a whole series of novella-length fanzines, since it feels like four or five different stories in a serial arc.

That was where the book lost me a bit. They set up this huge threat of the Tomarii, an empire that threatens not only the Federation, but the Romulan and Klingon Empires as well. And they are forgotten about for about a 1/3 of the novel. You could argue, based on the ending, that it's a Spock centric story. But that doesn't seem to fit either. Perhaps your fanzine theory might work. That might explain the unusual chapter divisions here. Each chapter had subchapters and seemed to focus on a particular mini-story. Maybe it's best viewed as several mini-stories tied together.

 

[Christopher]

(I'm not sure, is Sonni a male or female author?)

Read the book's introduction -- that'll answer your question.

Perhaps a better way to put it. It's not exactly clear. Like I said, Memory-Alpha places it in 2370, but that's probably mainly a default. It seems post-5YM, but pre-TMP.

This book was written decades before it was settled that TOS took place in 2266-9. Heck, it was barely after the Spaceflight Chronology, which put TOS around 2207 or so.

 

[tomswift2002]

I do give Sonni Cooper (I'm not sure, is Sonni a male or female author?) credit for thinking outside the box. This story takes a major character on a significant story arc and involves other significant changes (like the new bridge and uniforms) that books usually just don't get into (partly because in general you have to put the pieces back at the end usually).

For some reason, it did remind me at times of "Killing Time", esp. Kirk and Spock's friendship, though without any homo-erotic overtones this time. And it seemed to have a bit of that other-worldly quality about it, everything seemed a bit off (which isn't always a bad thing).



Perhaps a better way to put it. It's not exactly clear. Like I said, Memory-Alpha places it in 2370, but that's probably mainly a default. It seems post-5YM, but pre-TMP. This novel doesn't actually really fit the existing Star Trek timeline as we know it today. I do think Cooper was thinking of a transition period before TMP (Chekov being promoted and put in charge of weapons/security seemed to be a nod in that direction). But it definitely does not seem like a post-TMP novel either.

The book also seems to cover a significant period of time (I'd say at least several months). The stardates focus around 5000-6000, but that doesn't really help narrow it down since Stardate usages at that time weren't consistent.



That was where the book lost me a bit. They set up this huge threat of the Tomarii, an empire that threatens not only the Federation, but the Romulan and Klingon Empires as well. And they are forgotten about for about a 1/3 of the novel. You could argue, based on the ending, that it's a Spock centric story. But that doesn't seem to fit either. Perhaps your fanzine theory might work. That might explain the unusual chapter divisions here. Each chapter had subchapters and seemed to focus on a particular mini-story. Maybe it's best viewed as several mini-stories tied together.

Sonni’s a woman, and she was apparently a consultant-writer on the Star Trek movies. Apparently “Black Fire” is considered the #1 Star Trek novel of the first 25 (1966-1991) years.

https://www.amazon.com/Sonni-Cooper/e/B000APQ83S?ref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share

 

[Desert Kris]

I won't spoil the end.

Coming at the end of two full paragraphs outlining so many events, this is one of the funniest "no spoilers" I've ever seen. I haven't read this book, and I'm still not sure if I will, but it sure seems full to the brim with story.

The book does bring up something that would be a major plot point in Generations, that is trilithium. Scott discovers it and notes it is much more powerful than dilithium (consistent with what we see in Generations, though it's logical to assume being that it is tri- instead of di- that it would be more powerful). Just an interesting aside I picked up on.

The trilithium stuff also acts as a set-up for Dreadnought!, where IIRC the Dreadnought's transwarp drive uses trilithium.

Battlestations! made me think of Generations at first, but I figured that it was a parallel rendering of the idea in Star Trek where there are first mention of Lithium as a component of the Enterprise's drive system, and then the writers decided to make it seem like more advanced materials were being used in the engine by "upgrading" Lithium to Dilithium. It seems natural from that standpoint that later writers might attempt to suggest more exotic materials or more advanced manufacturing techniques by "upgrading" even further with the idea of Trilithium. I wonder if all the different versions of Trilithium are examples of writers coming up with a variant of the same idea independently, or if Battlestations! really did pick up on the idea from Black Fire. It came as less of a surprise when I ran into a reference to something called Quintotriticale somewhere in ST tie-in media, which I assume was meant to imply a genetically modified version of wheat.

I have mixed feelings about the idea that Battlestations! picked up on an element from Black Fire. I had toyed with the idea of including Black Fire in my own reading project, in part because of the damage and rebuilding of the Enterprise that takes place, and how some of Diane Duane's books might have been depicting an incarnation of the Enterprise that is halfway between the series and movie configuration. I have a little bit of a morbid fascination with the trope of ST novels that mangle or cripple the Enterprise in alarming ways. I noticed that it happened more often in TOS when I watched it in production order, until the show finally settled down a bit more; so it didn't seem surprising that a fair amount of authors also play with that trope. Although the novel format allows for authors to be more creative with their "rough play", without having to worry about the budget of certain imagery.

The novel is also set up unlike any others I've read during that period. There are the main chapters like normal, then they are divided into subchapters numbered 1 through 4, 5 and even 6. I had read this novel years ago, and completely forgot about it. I remembered nothing of it from this re-read.

Not a lot of Star Trek books are formatted like that, that I've seen so far. It's something I've been getting used to with having started reading Stephen King novels over the last several years.

 

[Christopher]

I wonder if all the different versions of Trilithium are examples of writers coming up with a variant of the same idea independently, or if Battlestations! really did pick up on the idea from Black Fire.

Independently, of course. It's a pretty obvious (and pretty lazy) "next step" coinage. Heck, TNG invented it twice for two completely unrelated things, in "Starship Mine" and Generations, which really annoyed me.

 

[Damian]

Read the book's introduction -- that'll answer your question.

Oops. I skipped that, intending to read it after I finished the novel and then forgot about it. My bad.

This book was written decades before it was settled that TOS took place in 2266-9. Heck, it was barely after the Spaceflight Chronology, which put TOS around 2207 or so

Yeah, it's almost best to treat this particular novel, like some others of that era, as an alternate timeline to what we know today. It doesn't fit the current timeline really at all. Some of the early novels you could probably still fit in either the TV series era or movie era pretty well. This one fits neither. Perhaps that's another reason it reminded me a bit of "Killing Time" because that was an alternate timeline story. This one felt like that as well, even if it wasn't explicitly so.

And that's fine. One of the reasons I'm enjoying re-reading some of these early novels is they were written at a time when so little was known about Star Trek continuity, so authors had a freer hand. It really is fascinating to see how some authors took things in the 1980s. And sometimes it's interesting to see an early author come up with an idea that would show up in a show years, or even decades later, even if by coincidence, as was usually the case. Trilithium here. In "The Klingon Gambit" I noticed some similar ideas to a later Enterprise episode.

Apparently “Black Fire” is considered the #1 Star Trek novel of the first 25 (1966-1991) years

I should look at some of the reviews of this one. I usually will wait to see actual reviews until I've read it, since sometimes I like things other's don't and vice versa. I really enjoyed Gene DeWeese's novel "Engines of Destiny", yet I find that book tends to get mixed reviews. And I loved his "Chain of Attack" (probably one of my all time favorites), yet, while it doesn't get horrible reviews usually, it's not one of the higher rated books.

And, well, as I always say, TMP was my favorite Star Trek movie and I liked Nemesis (that usually puts me in pretty lonely company).

On the other had sometimes it's more obvious. After reading "Price of the Phoenix," for instance, I didn't have to imagine the kinds of reviews that book would have. And on the other hand I figured the "Destiny" trilogy would be pretty popular (though not universally so in either case, there are always some who feel differently).

But "Black Fire" was one of those where I could see it falling either way, maybe it was generally liked or even loved, or maybe it was hated. For me it was neither. I liked that she pushed the boundaries a bit. Spock a renegade, then a pirate, then a Romulan soldier. That's definitely thinking outside the box (for that era anyway). But the plot got lost for me a bit. I wasn't sure if she was trying to tell a Tomarii threat novel, or a Spock story.

Coming at the end of two full paragraphs outlining so many events, this is one of the funniest "no spoilers" I've ever seen. I haven't read this book, and I'm still not sure if I will, but it sure seems full to the brim with story.

Hope I didn't give too much away. None of that points to the resolution however, and there is a lot going on in this story. I wasn't sure how much to bring up about the plot when trying to review it.

This sounds like more of a standalone novel. Other than trilithium coming up again in "Dreadnought" it doesn't sound like anything carries over in any future novels, and it doesn't build on anything earlier. So perhaps something to read down the line. I'd recommend giving it a try though at some point. It has it's fans apparently, and it is a definite interesting 'alternate' take on what might have happened between the TV series and TMP.

And despite my so-so review, I didn't find it a bad book. And it was interesting to see a different first officer, engineer and science officer on the crew. Kirk really comes to rely on Scott and Spock and while they all get things done, you can see he feels a loss without two of his most trusted officers.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, it's almost best to treat this particular novel, like some others of that era, as an alternate timeline to what we know today.

I'm not a fan of using "alternate timelines" as a handwave for what's simply an alternative way of imagining a work of make-believe. Alternate timelines are a concept used within certain stories, when it serves a purpose within those stories. When two stories are just radically different interpretations of a concept, that's not "timelines," it's just people making up stories differently from one another. In this case, it's earlier storytellers conjecturing things differently from how later canon creators did. Trying to force an "alternate-timeline" paradigm onto that feels like a distortion to me, twisting it into something it isn't.

Some of the early novels you could probably still fit in either the TV series era or movie era pretty well.

The only book from that era that I still count in my personal continuity is The Covenant of the Crown. And I haven't read that one in years, so for all I know, it's been contradicted by something onscreen by now.

 

[Daddy Todd]

Apparently “Black Fire” is considered the #1 Star Trek novel of the first 25 (1966-1991) years.

Well, at very least by it’s own author. I would like to know what narrow subset of trekfandom considers it so.

 

[Damian]

I'm not a fan of using "alternate timelines" as a handwave for what's simply an alternative way of imagining a work of make-believe. Alternate timelines are a concept used within certain stories, when it serves a purpose within those stories.

Well, I should clarify that what I mean is don't expect it to fit in the timeline as we know now it. An alternate-take is another way to describe it.

I don't really mean literally take it as an alternate time-line per se. I mean, that's not even an element of the story.

Though in a way, based on "Parallels" there is a vast multi-verse already described in universe. Perhaps this is just one of those. Ok, maybe not.

It's always best to read these novels with the mind set of what was known about the continuity when it was written, in this case at a time when we were only up to TWOK (and presumably this was written before TWOK was actually released so it's probably likely she was only drawing on the original series and TMP).

The only book from that era that I still count in my personal continuity is The Covenant of the Crown. And I haven't read that one in years, so for all I know, it's been contradicted by something onscreen by now.

Well, it's probably true very few books from that era would fit in with the existing continuity as we know it today. What I meant is some of those early novels were clear as to whether they were intended to be a TV series era or movie era novel. "Black Fire" differed in the sense that it didn't clearly fit into either of those eras. It's sort of a carry over from my alternate universe comment. Though that's not a perfect description either.

But yeah, it's unlikely most of those novels would still fit into the continuity today.

 

[Christopher]

What I meant is some of those early novels were clear as to whether they were intended to be a TV series era or movie era novel. "Black Fire" differed in the sense that it didn't clearly fit into either of those eras.

I think it was one of a few novels that went for the fairly logical notion that there would've been a gradual change from the way things were in the series to the way they were in TMP, rather than every single change happening simultaneously after the 5-year mission ended. Other examples include Sulu's promotion in The Entropy Effect and the TMP-style rec room in Diane Duane's novels, or the way some comics set in "year five" have given Scotty a mustache.

I mean, breaking things down into "eras" is kind of artificial, isn't it? Life is continuous. If anything, the books that show TMP-ish elements starting to get phased in toward the end of the 5-year mission make more sense than the ones that insist on a sharp divide between TOS elements in the 5YM and movie elements in the movie era.

 

[Desert Kris]

Yeah, it's almost best to treat this particular novel, like some others of that era, as an alternate timeline to what we know today. It doesn't fit the current timeline really at all. Some of the early novels you could probably still fit in either the TV series era or movie era pretty well. This one fits neither. Perhaps that's another reason it reminded me a bit of "Killing Time" because that was an alternate timeline story. This one felt like that as well, even if it wasn't explicitly so.
...
Hope I didn't give too much away. None of that points to the resolution however, and there is a lot going on in this story. I wasn't sure how much to bring up about the plot when trying to review it.

On the alternative timeline issue, I figured you meant alternative continuity...? As far as giving away too much, I wouldn't worry. I might not ever read the book, but there were certain things I was curious about. You give a helpful overview of things I was curious about, such as the exact damage the Enterprise takes, how extensively she is refurbished, and what kind of uniforms are being worn.

I think it was one of a few novels that went for the fairly logical notion that there would've been a gradual change from the way things were in the series to the way they were in TMP, rather than every single change happening simultaneously after the 5-year mission ended. Other examples include Sulu's promotion in The Entropy Effect and the TMP-style rec room in Diane Duane's novels, or the way some comics set in "year five" have given Scotty a mustache.

I mean, breaking things down into "eras" is kind of artificial, isn't it? Life is continuous. If anything, the books that show TMP-ish elements starting to get phased in toward the end of the 5-year mission make more sense than the ones that insist on a sharp divide between TOS elements in the 5YM and movie elements in the movie era.

It's interesting how you draw attention to a more gradual transition between the series and TMP, and the novels playing that idea out. The earlier books I read in my own project have that with The Wounded Sky and My Enemy, My Ally. Given how the books in that sequence also seem to have the Enterprise closer to home, it suggested to me that Enterprise's patrol was winding down; but also that a hybridized Enterprise starts to accumulate mismatched technology with some jury rigging to adapted newer systems with the older programs. It suggested to me that the Enterprise is also making more maintenance stops between missions. As I've gone further through the books, though, authors like Diane Carey and JM Dillard depict the Enterprise in a more strictly classic TOS configuration. It's just an overall impression, though.

 

[Christopher]

As I've gone further through the books, though, authors like Diane Carey and JM Dillard depict the Enterprise in a more strictly classic TOS configuration.

Sure, that's kind of the point. There wasn't a single shared continuity back then, just individual authors interpreting the universe in which TOS took place in their own independent ways, albeit occasionally borrowing characters or worldbuilding elements from one another. Some preferred just to do timeless TOS-style stories, while others tried to suggest a gradual transition between TOS and TMP elements. There was no house style, no single mandated approach.

 

[Damian]

I think it was one of a few novels that went for the fairly logical notion that there would've been a gradual change from the way things were in the series to the way they were in TMP, rather than every single change happening simultaneously after the 5-year mission ended

I was always a bit mystified that people thought there was some ambiguity as to how long TMP was after the end of the 5YM. We had a discussion on another thread and some think maybe there was up to 10 years between the two (I guess because TMP was 10 years after the end of the TV series). I mean, maybe I'm a bit too literal but when I saw TMP and they said Captain Kirk was behind a desk for 2 1/2 years I just assumed that meant it's been 2 1/2 years since the end of the 5YM. I figured that's why the writer's mentioned it at all. It never seemed ambiguous to me.

I get what you're saying. The changes were pretty significant in TMP and it's hard to fathom that all occurred in 2 1/2 years--though I suppose it's possible other ships we never saw on screen underwent some changes before that. I always thought the control room of the Epsilon 9 station looked like a half-way mark between the TV series and TMP--it had elements that reminded me of the TV series while updated with some TMP tech--so maybe some ships had middle of the road changes and the Enterprise when it was time to refit just did a complete overhaul).

Of course, sometimes fans try to read too much into things. On that same thread some were speculating that maybe TWOK wasn't exactly 15 Earth years after "Space Seed"--maybe it was Ceti-Alpha years or something (though Kirk notes 15 years as well and that was separate from Khan's noting 15 years). Sometimes the writer literally means what they say. I think it's safe to say the writers literally meant 15 years. And I just thought, gee, we can go a bit overboard on things sometimes. I forget the saying but sometimes something is what it is.

Anyway, I'm digressing a bit. I saw TMP back in 86, so before TNG and the continuity building that went on, and I thought it was pretty clear personally the timeframe was 2 1/2 years after the end of the 5YM. I'm curious, did other people feel differently at the time?

 

[Christopher]

I was always a bit mystified that people thought there was some ambiguity as to how long TMP was after the end of the 5YM.

Okay, but I wasn't talking about timespan. I was talking about whether things changed all at once or more progressively. As I mentioned, some books and comics have had changes introduced in the last year or so of the 5-year mission, like Scotty growing a mustache or Sulu getting promoted or Chekov moving to security. So it's the same time interval, just a different interpretation of whether these things happened before or after the end of the 5YM.

As far as I know, there's nothing in Black Fire to suggest that it assumes a "second 5YM" or anything. Yes, the story as a whole takes several months, but since there was no continuity among novels then and the book stood on its own, those several months could all take place in the fourth year of the 5YM, say. It doesn't rule out a longer mission duration than 5 years, no, but I don't think it requires one either.

I mean, maybe I'm a bit too literal but when I saw TMP and they said Captain Kirk was behind a desk for 2 1/2 years I just assumed that meant it's been 2 1/2 years since the end of the 5YM.

The more crucial line is Kirk talking about "my five years out there" dealing with unknowns, not ten years. That's the part that makes it overt.

I get what you're saying. The changes were pretty significant in TMP and it's hard to fathom that all occurred in 2 1/2 years--though I suppose it's possible other ships we never saw on screen underwent some changes before that.

One interpretation is that the tech and uniform changes did take place gradually, but since the E was out in deep space for 5 years, it didn't catch up with those changes until it came back home. DC's second annual had the E coming back home and meeting Will Decker, who was in a TMP-style uniform and told them it had been introduced in their absence. (Scotty hated the "pajamas" look but Uhura was glad it had pants.)

Of course, sometimes fans try to read too much into things. On that same thread some were speculating that maybe TWOK wasn't exactly 15 Earth years after "Space Seed"--maybe it was Ceti-Alpha years or something (though Kirk notes 15 years as well and that was separate from Khan's noting 15 years). Sometimes the writer literally means what they say. I think it's safe to say the writers literally meant 15 years.

Well, yes, obviously that's what TWOK's writers intended, but the Okudas threw a monkeywrench in the works when the Chronology dated TWOK 18 years after "Space Seed" instead of 15, for some bizarre reason. (Apparently it was to stay consistent with TFF's reference to Nimbus being 20 years old, but why weigh TFF above TWOK?) And since the studio's licensing people insist that the books follow the Chronology's conjectural dating as long as it isn't contradicted by canon, that means the books were required to put TWOK in 2285, 18 years after "Space Seed." Hence, Greg Cox's To Reign in Hell rationalized the inconsistency by positing that Ceti Alpha V years were 1.2 Earth years. None of it was fan speculation, nor was it arbitrary (except maybe for the Okudas' odd decision to contradict TWOK).

Anyway, I'm digressing a bit. I saw TMP back in 86, so before TNG and the continuity building that went on, and I thought it was pretty clear personally the timeframe was 2 1/2 years after the end of the 5YM. I'm curious, did other people feel differently at the time?

Clearly some of the novelists did, as there are books that are set pre-TMP but still several years after TOS (including Corona and the first few Diane Duane novels).

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that a lot of series fiction back then didn't really take the passage of time all that literally. Look at M*A*S*H, an 11-year series about a 3-year war. Or Run for Your Life, a 3-season show about a guy with 18 months to live. Or Marvel Comics, where the stories have always kept pace with the present day but the characters have aged barely a decade in the past 60 years. I think some early Trek novelists were just working in that kind of timeless mode, where any number of years could pass and it would still be in the 5-year mission.

 

[Avro Arrow]

I was always a bit mystified that people thought there was some ambiguity as to how long TMP was after the end of the 5YM. We had a discussion on another thread and some think maybe there was up to 10 years between the two (I guess because TMP was 10 years after the end of the TV series).

I actually prefer the 10-year interpretation, simply due to the fact that because it was 10-years after the show, the characters looked a lot older than what you would expect two to three years to allow for. Unfortunately, the rest of the franchise didn't go with this interpretation, so it is what it is.

 

[Damian]

Okay, but I wasn't talking about timespan. I was talking about whether things changed all at once or more progressively.

Ok, yeah, looking at it through the lens of when it was written, I could see that. Nowadays we kind of assume the 3 seasons of the TV series plus the 2 seasons of the animated series (however brief) filled out the 5 YM more or less. But back then, esp. if you didn't take the animated series into consideration, you could say that the TV series just covered the first 3 years, leaving 2 years to play with. "Black Fire" could conceivably be within that 5YM period at the tail end and the changes taking place during that time. There's nothing precluding that at least. It's not clear one way or the other, leaving it basically up the the reader.

The more crucial line is Kirk talking about "my five years out there" dealing with unknowns, not ten years. That's the part that makes it overt

Part of it was someone said that Wise had thought TMP took place 10 years after the TV series. But I never took that as gospel. He didn't write the story so I'd put more stock in what's in the story as opposed to what the director may have thought (and I don't think he ever said anything conclusively, just what he thought). But yeah, it seems to all add up to TMP taking place about 2 1/2 years after the conclusion of the 5 YM.

Well, yes, obviously that's what TWOK's writers intended, but the Okudas threw a monkeywrench in the works when the Chronology dated TWOK 18 years after "Space Seed" instead of 15, for some bizarre reason. (Apparently it was to stay consistent with TFF's reference to Nimbus being 20 years old, but why weigh TFF above TWOK?)

I keep forgetting about the Chronology. Yeah, doesn't make a lot of sense. It'd be a a lot easier to say the 20 years was '20 Nimbus years' and that Nimbus years were longer than an Earth year. It would affect a lot less.

There were a couple of cases where the movies thought in terms of 'real years' rather than 'in story years'. Admiral Morrows comment in TSFS about the Enterprise being 20 years old is another. 20 years from when Star Trek premiered, yes. But in story it's actually 40 years. I liked that you made a valiant effort to explain that discrepancy by indicating Morrow had issues with keeping track of time, but it's a hard one to explain away effectively. If TFF had simply used the 15 years also, that'd make a lot more sense.

But I would have preferred they stayed consistent with TWOK, since that has a greater effect than a single line in TFF did. It's much easier to explain away TFF line. Esp. since in TWOK Kirk even noted it was 15 years, totally separate from Khan.

I will say, none of the fans on the other thread noted the Chronology or even TFF in their opinion (it was in the movie thread so not as many there read the books).

I think some early Trek novelists were just working in that kind of timeless mode, where any number of years could pass and it would still be in the 5-year mission

Certainly true. Most of the early novels I've read so far seem to be 5YM stories. But I know a number of novel writers, even today, noted that they prefer writing in the 5YM time frame since it's most familiar, which I guess was probably true back then. Unless there's a specific story you want to tell that requires it being during the movie era for some reason.