Star Trek 2009 timeline disruption, technology alteration

[Deks]

Ok... so the Narada travelled back in time and destroyed the USS Kelvin.

Evidently, the destruction of this ship at the hands of a mining ship from (later confirmed) 129 years into the future seems to have altered the timeline sufficiently.

How much would this affect the technology of the era?
We know the Kelvin was easily destroyed by the Narada and when Starfleet was designing the Constitution, they obviously made changes to its design for one thing, and might have beefed up the offensive and defensive systems (not to mention the Warp drive).

How much of a difference is there between the 2009 Connie and the TOS one in terms of technology?

The 2009 version certainly 'appears' more advanced.

Now, if Starfleet had some scant sensor data to work with from the evacuated shuttles of the Narada (which would seem sensible), then is it possible the 2009 Connie would be more closer to the TMP version of Constitution in terms of technology, or beyond even (possibly on par with the Excelsior, if not even the Ambassador class)?

Since money doesn't exist in the Federation (or at least, its not supposed to), then they would be simply be supplying research labs with whatever resources they need to devise a better defensive system (such as computers, raw materials, etc.).

Now, even if they managed to advance their technology to a level closer to the Enterprise-C era for example (which might be potentially doable), it wouldn't necessarily be enough to ward off the Narada.

And even if the Narada was NOT enhanced by Borg technology (which was not canonically established), the mining ship in question DOES come from 129 years in to the future.
Romulans were also shown in the prime timeline to favour large ships, and it is possible that some of their mining operations might require such sizes.

Plus, the Narada comes from 2387 (if my calculations are accurate).
Will all the technologies the Federation had at it's disposal, plus sensor data from the Delta Quadrant (thanks to Voyager), plus standard research and development, and a bunch of other things we don't know about (its also not like the Klingons and Romulans wouldn't advance either, and the Feds were diligent about sharing some scientific findings with others), plus 2387 is 9 years after Voyager returned.

Not taking the novels into account, it leaves A LOT of room for change and massive overhauls that don't need Borg technology.

I wonder if the Transwarp project would have happened on the Excelsior again, and if the
Starfleet does seem to now have access to Transwarp beaming though (which Scotty apparently perfected in the regular timeline sometime after the Dominion War?).

The USS Vengeance from the last Trek film was stated to be about 3 times faster than the Enterprise (of whose warp speed we know little about in terms of how many times C it can go).
Do we have any estimates on how much faster in terms of times c this would be?

 

[Timo]

We know the Kelvin was easily destroyed by the Narada and when Starfleet was designing the Constitution, they obviously made changes to its design for one thing, and might have beefed up the offensive and defensive systems (not to mention the Warp drive).

This presupposes

1) that Starfleet would be capable of doing better, and
2) that single random encounters in deep space actually define Starfleet construction policy.

Both assumptions are problematic. Starfleet already knows it's facing overwhelming forces when venturing into deep space: it would make no sense to build the Kelvin to be weaker than she could be. And adapting to a single adversary would be no guarantee of being able to cope with the next one - the resources might be better spent on more generalist and more modest upgrades that increase overall survival odds, not merely anti-Narada abilities.

How much of a difference is there between the 2009 Connie and the TOS one in terms of technology?

And how much of that is simply because the former ship is so much larger? That is, if the TOS universe featured a ship that big, would that one differ from the 2009 ship, or would certain technologies simply be standard for big ships but not for small ones?

Now, if Starfleet had some scant sensor data to work with from the evacuated shuttles of the Narada (which would seem sensible), then is it possible the 2009 Connie would be more closer to the TMP version of Constitution in terms of technology, or beyond even (possibly on par with the Excelsior, if not even the Ambassador class)?

It's difficult to see how sensor readings on an adversary would result in Starfleet technology being closer to TMP. Why would sensor readings on the Narada include the secrets of how to build TMP stuff? Especially as they are sensor readings of a non-starship - of a mining rig whose systems probably are very different from those needed by an exploration or combat vessel.

Before TMP, Starfleet got sensor readings of the First Federation vessel, the Eymorg ion ship and the Dikironide Cloud among others. We see no indication that these would have changed, let alone improved, the way Starfleet builds starships.

The USS Vengeance from the last Trek film was stated to be about 3 times faster than the Enterprise (of whose warp speed we know little about in terms of how many times C it can go).
Do we have any estimates on how much faster in terms of times c this would be?

Well, three times the times c, apparently...

I mean, they didn't say the villain ship had three times the warp factors or anything. They said it was thrice as fast ("three times the speed"). That's pretty definite.

Then again, they also said "two time the size", which sounds like a really low estimate. Were they speaking of length only, or is the Vengeance hollow or made of featherweight materials?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

This presupposes

1) that Starfleet would be capable of doing better, and
2) that single random encounters in deep space actually define Starfleet construction policy.

1) Well, we have examples from the regular timeline that if SF was exposed to something which they hadn't though of as possible before, they were able to conjure up a solution that works pretty quickly with the same effects (though often riddled with issues considering its their first try - but a highly successful one considering it actually worked to a certain degree).

2) Again, drawing from the regular timeline, the Borg initially inspired SF to create a 'battle fleet' with designs such as the Defiant that were meant to go up against and defeat the Borg - so at least it shows they can do certain things when they put their minds and technology to it.

Both assumptions are problematic. Starfleet already knows it's facing overwhelming forces when venturing into deep space: it would make no sense to build the Kelvin to be weaker than she could be. And adapting to a single adversary would be no guarantee of being able to cope with the next one - the resources might be better spent on more generalist and more modest upgrades that increase overall survival odds, not merely anti-Narada abilities.

Actually, not necessarily.
SF's ships emulate versatility, which in itself is not bad... but also, they don't necessarily put 'the best of the best' into every design.
We have examples that ships underwent retrofits that provided more powerful warp cores and offensive/defensive systems after encountering more 'overwhelming odds'.

Mind you, I'm hardly advocating for a militarized SF... merely one where they try to prepare ALL their versatile ships for the relative unknown a bit better - though granted, until you encounter it, you won't know how effective your measures are.

And how much of that is simply because the former ship is so much larger? That is, if the TOS universe featured a ship that big, would that one differ from the 2009 ship, or would certain technologies simply be standard for big ships but not for small ones?

With respect, large ships such as the Excelsior in the TMP era for example didn't feature all that same designs as we've seen them in 2009 except perhaps in general outlook.

The Constitution class from the alternate timeline certainly looks much more sleek/smoother compared to its TOS and TMP era counterparts.

It's difficult to see how sensor readings on an adversary would result in Starfleet technology being closer to TMP. Why would sensor readings on the Narada include the secrets of how to build TMP stuff? Especially as they are sensor readings of a non-starship - of a mining rig whose systems probably are very different from those needed by an exploration or combat vessel.

Well, even scant sensor data of the Narada from shuttles might have provided some insight into the types of weapons it used, along with hull materials, etc.
This might have affected Starfleet's construction policy on the Constitution class and other designs that were made in that time frame.

Before TMP, Starfleet got sensor readings of the First Federation vessel, the Eymorg ion ship and the Dikironide Cloud among others. We see no indication that these would have changed, let alone improved, the way Starfleet builds starships.

The only changes we do see externally in ship design, etc. is from TMP and subsequent movies.
The Constitution class refit for example, as well as the Excelsior might have been affected by these encounters - and keep in mind that there's less than a decade of differential between TOS and TMP (and even ST II), whereas the encounters between the Narada and Kelvin took place 25 years before the Constitution class was actually constructed.

Well, three times the times c, apparently...

I mean, they didn't say the villain ship had three times the warp factors or anything. They said it was thrice as fast ("three times the speed"). That's pretty definite.

Then again, they also said "two time the size", which sounds like a really low estimate. Were they speaking of length only, or is the Vengeance hollow or made of featherweight materials?

Timo Saloniemi

We already established it was said the Vengeance was 3 times as fast as the Enterprise while being twice as big.
I was wondering how fast the nuEnterprise actually was - which we could use to calculate the speed of the Vengeance.

Since some people claimed that the Warp 8 in TOS was equivalent to what the nuTrek Enterprise was capable of (of which we have no evidence) and about 512 times c... then that would put the Vengeance at a theoretical 1536 times c - though, when you take into account their previous locations (near the Klingon homeworld), and the time spent at warp back to SOL - plus taking into account that the Enterprise was forced out of Warp near Earth's moon. That would actually suggest massive speeds (just over 27 million times c actually - for the Enterprise that is - which puts it at 3125 Ly's per hour - which is just over 10 times faster than v1 slipstram).

As for Vengeance's size... that could be both in length and width.
However, a certain portion of the Vengeance saucer is empty.
Also, it might have been constructed from better materials which require less resources, but are intricately stronger and more durable than the ones used on Enterprise.

Also keep in mind that the Enterprise probably took detailed (or as much detailed) sensor data on the Narada compared to what the evacuated shuttles could do (not to mention that the Enterprise's sensors would likely be more advanced compared to those of 25 years before and would contain more details about the ship, its composition, hull alloys, weapons used, etc.).

Plus there's elder Spock to take into account as well and how much of future knowledge he shared with Starfleet beyond Transwarp beaming once the Narada was destroyed.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Ok... so the Narada travelled back in time and destroyed the USS Kelvin.

Evidently, the destruction of this ship at the hands of a mining ship from (later confirmed) 129 years into the future seems to have altered the timeline sufficiently.

How much would this affect the technology of the era?
We know the Kelvin was easily destroyed by the Narada and when Starfleet was designing the Constitution, they obviously made changes to its design for one thing, and might have beefed up the offensive and defensive systems (not to mention the Warp drive).

How much of a difference is there between the 2009 Connie and the TOS one in terms of technology?

A lot more would be going on behind Starfleet's procurement process than we are probably familiar with. Politics, personality clashes, different sides lobbying for different priorities on finite budgets. Historical and military confrontations can change the way these internal conflicts are resolved, and an event of major significance can break an impasse one way or the other.

Since we have to assume the Kelvin existed in the prime timeline before Narada's arrival, the untimely loss of the Kelvin would be a big factor in this. And by TOS standards, Kelvin is a weird design; it's far bigger than a Constitution class and appears to be somewhat better (differently?) armed. It has a huge number of shuttles and a crew of 800 people. It is possible, in other words, that Kelvin is the FLAGSHIP of Starfleet in the 2230s, one of the biggest and most powerful in service at the time.

The loss of a high-valued starship to a totally unknown threat would have some pretty serious implications, I think. In particular, if there was a controversial fleet policy at the time or if there were concerns about the Kelvin-type ships not being powerful enough or not being used in the proper mission role, the loss of the Kelvin would vindicate the critics and undermine the counter-argument of prevailing wisdom.

A paradigm shift might well be the result; in the prime timeline, the existing paradigm called for a modernization of smaller "cruiser" type ships like what eventually became the Constitution class while giant explorers like Kelvin were phased out over time (eventually replaced by the Excelsiors years later). In this new version, the loss of the Kelvin gives opponents of the "cruiser doctrine" theory a political boost and they manage to convince the Federation council that nerfing half the Starfleet into affordable "Economy sized" starships is a stupid idea because "Look what happened to the Kelvin!" Instead they manage to convince the Federation Council to develop a newer and more powerful flagship design, or possibly to make better use of the powerful ships they already have so they're not mucking around in disputed space waiting to get ambushed by somebody.

It could also be some political and public relations issues; an administration that mishandles the Kelvin Fiasco would probably find itself on the loosing side in the next election cycle, especially if the opposing party can use this as a rallying cry for pro-Starfleet voters who feel the fleet should be exploring more ambitiously and not sitting on its hands waiting for the Klingons to attack.

And even if the Narada was NOT enhanced by Borg technology (which was not canonically established), the mining ship in question DOES come from 129 years in to the future.
Romulans were also shown in the prime timeline to favour large ships, and it is possible that some of their mining operations might require such sizes.

There's another possibility (a retcon, really) that the "disruptor style weapons" used by Romulan and Klingon fleets are actually projectile weapons and have been all along; that the only reason we didn't know this is because the VFX use the same "energy blob" effect they do for photon torpedoes and phaser bolts, but that wrapped up in that energy bolt is a physical projectile that does a lot of damage (to think of it, we wouldn't know torpedoes had casings either if we hadn't seen the loading bay in "Wrath of Khan.")

So it could be that the Narada's "missiles" are actually mid 24th century Disruptors. That is, surplus military hardware purchased (or stolen/salvaged) by Nero, who has already devoted himself to a life of piracy and terrorism.

The USS Vengeance from the last Trek film was stated to be about 3 times faster than the Enterprise (of whose warp speed we know little about in terms of how many times C it can go).
Do we have any estimates on how much faster in terms of times c this would be?

They were deliberately vague on Vengeance's top speed, and I don't think a concrete figure would even exist for such a craft. It's probably got some kind of high warp supercruise capacity that allows for a short burst of speed and then a gradual slowdown as it overtakes its intended target.

Back of a napkin guess: if Enterprise is using a warp drive similar to the one the Xindi were using a hundred years earlier, and covering a distance of about 100 ly in an hour or less, that's about 870,000C. Vengeance wouldn't have to travel THAT much faster in order to overtake Enterprise just seconds before it reached the edge of the solar system.

 

[Go-Captain]

Ok... so the Narada travelled back in time and destroyed the USS Kelvin.

Evidently, the destruction of this ship at the hands of a mining ship from (later confirmed) 129 years into the future seems to have altered the timeline sufficiently.

How much would this affect the technology of the era?
We know the Kelvin was easily destroyed by the Narada and when Starfleet was designing the Constitution, they obviously made changes to its design for one thing, and might have beefed up the offensive and defensive systems (not to mention the Warp drive).

How much of a difference is there between the 2009 Connie and the TOS one in terms of technology?

Originally I thought the Kelvin had to be the result of averted future time travel not affecting the deeper past, or new future time travel affecting the deeper past. But, the intention was for the Kelvin to be the equivilant of a battleship. That actually fits better, not just because it is simpler, far less convoluted, it gives more impetus to cause alterations in the Constitution class. The Kelvin wasn't just some little, one nacelle ship, it was a giant important ship, best of the fleet kind of thing.

The technology can only change so much. There are two ways new weapons can be developed either off the shelf, or from scratch. If it's off the shelf it is what it is, but if it is cutting edge bespoke stuff for the program, then the abilities will be somewhat better, or far better in some cases. It costs more, it takes longer (which would be the real concern for a post scarcity society, as the real money would be time), but if it is managed right it will lead the curve. In the grand scheme the latter is not going to be all that much more capable than the previous one, but it might be five or ten years ahead of the common tech of the period.

Over all though, the power density, and computational ability, and output rate is going to all be pretty similar to the primary timeline. The only way around the density, power and computing, is to build big.

They have the Connie percolating when the Narada appears. Bam! Starfleet's biggest baddest ship, the Kelvin, is a total push over, and the threat can appear anywhere at any time. The only way to get around this mystery threat is more firepower concentrated in every platform. As outlined above, if they cannot build better systems, they better build bigger systems. And, even if they do build better it can be only so by so much, so they still need to build bigger, because they really don't know much about the Narada in any case. So, the ST2009 Conni is Galaxy-class size, as are all the other last generation ships. Maybe all their technical emphasis got pushed on hull design and engine design in order to build these giant ships with greater ease.

The new Connie looks more advanced, but only in that it looks more like what we have now. It indicates, possibly, a less conservative approuch to their design. Where they would have leaned toward foolproof arrays of buttons, they attempted higher efficiency, LCARS style interfaces sooner. Or, maybe they just decided to decorate something so ambitious.

The tech wouldn't be Enterprise-C level, but maybe closer to -A, but not even that advanced. So, if anything it might be 5 or 10 years more advanced, and that's assuming the program went perfectly and didn't fall behind civilian development, which is a real life issue.

If you want a rough idea of how much more powerful the new Connie is, you could take the volume and see how many times larger it is than the original that way. Actually, if we take the Galaxy volume that's close enough for rough thinking.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html

Galaxy 5,820,983
Constitution 211,248
5,820,983/211,248=27.5552099902

27.5 times more powerful. It's really meaningless though, it supposes too much, but it's fun.

Sizes can be compared here. The new Connie is larger than the Galaxy, and the Kelvin is not all that far behind the Galaxy in size.
http://www.ditl.org/sizes-select-page.php?Both=0&ListID=SizeCharts

Another angle is how the U.S.S. Defiant (TOS) obliterated everything in its path in the 22nd century in the Enterprise episode A Mirror Darkly. Maybe we could say it was five times more powerful, because that's roughly how many period ships it fought. But, again, that's a simplification, and on the other hand if we go that maybe the sheer size of the new Connie has allowed it to jump ahead a century in raw firepower, and computing power, just not sophistication. That would make the Vengeance even more of a leap in raw ability, and we know it combines quite some innovation as well, rather than being off the shelf.

And even if the Narada was NOT enhanced by Borg technology (which was not canonically established), the mining ship in question DOES come from 129 years in to the future.
Romulans were also shown in the prime timeline to favour large ships, and it is possible that some of their mining operations might require such sizes.

It's nice to see that set of opinions held by someone else. I believe the size and design of the Narada is so it can grasp and swallow small asteroids with easy. I suppose the beam derrick is so it can keep its distance from larger asteroids while it cuts them up, in order to protect the hull, but a beam with the range to cut to a planets core makes the extending portion superfluous.

If we compare the Narada versus the ST2009 ships, we can draw a parallel to "A Mirror Darkly" in that we have two ships from distant futures obliterating past ships. However, we get two Naradas, in a way, in that it versus the Enterprise and Kelvin it can only handle one ship, and not even all that quickly, but against the fleet at Vulcan it wins with ease. I imagine it mined Vulcan's orbit somehow.

Plus, the Narada comes from 2387 (if my calculations are accurate).
Will all the technologies the Federation had at it's disposal, plus sensor data from the Delta Quadrant (thanks to Voyager), plus standard research and development, and a bunch of other things we don't know about (its also not like the Klingons and Romulans wouldn't advance either, and the Feds were diligent about sharing some scientific findings with others), plus 2387 is 9 years after Voyager returned.

Not taking the novels into account, it leaves A LOT of room for change and massive overhauls that don't need Borg technology.

If anything the Narada technology should be behind the curve of common military tech for the period, very far behind. But, even then it could easily put it ahead of the TOS period since there is so much time. If the Narada is meant for harvesting huge asteroids that would help explain why its torpedoes are so capable, and why it has torpedoes at all, and why they're so good as burrowing through defenses. They're meant to break up asteroids using finesse rather than raw firepower.

The USS Vengeance from the last Trek film was stated to be about 3 times faster than the Enterprise (of whose warp speed we know little about in terms of how many times C it can go).
Do we have any estimates on how much faster in terms of times c this would be?

You could time how long the film took to transition from Vulcan to the Sol system when trying to protect Earth from the Narada. It's not perfect, but it gives a high end speed. Then you can multiply that by three.

The real innovation of the Vengeance seems to be its ability to merge warp fields.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Sizes can be compared here. The new Connie is larger than the Galaxy

No it isn't. It's just LONGER. In truth, it's only about two thirds as large as the Galaxy class and a much larger proportion of that volume is in its enormous warp nacelles, plus an engineering section that consists almost entirely of cargo bays and machinery. Which means the Galaxy class probably has around four times the living space as the Constitution class, in addition to its primary systems taking up half as much room.

The real innovation of the Vengeance seems to be its ability to merge warp fields.

And from a considerable distance at that. From past precedent, this is supposedly something that requires a very precise velocity match in order to pull off; Vengeance is able to do this from way back in Enterprise's blind spot and then close the gap at a high relative velocity. That seems to me a very specialized kind of engine design, and I would wager is probably the ENTIRE reason Vengeance is as big as it is.

 

[blssdwlf]

In all likelihood the 2009 universe is already an alternate universe. Star Trek: Enterprise had warp speed phaser combat capability while Star Trek Into Darkness appeared to make that unique to the Vengeance. The lack of long range at warp scanning capability of the Enterprise in Star Trek 09 is also different than what the TV series technology could do.

They may have the same names and similar aesthetics, but the tech is different in the reboot universe. That's probably for the better as that gives the writers a bit more freedom to write whatever story they want to without constraints, IMO.

 

[borgboy]

I'm still trying to figure out what happened to Kirk's brother Sam.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I'm still trying to figure out what happened to Kirk's brother Sam.

He changed his name to "Johnny" and married a Muslim guy named Hadji Kwest. And now they travel around the world solving mysteries together.

Yes, that's what CBS' new Star Trek series is going to be about.

 

[Go-Captain]

In all likelihood the 2009 universe is already an alternate universe. Star Trek: Enterprise had warp speed phaser combat capability while Star Trek Into Darkness appeared to make that unique to the Vengeance. The lack of long range at warp scanning capability of the Enterprise in Star Trek 09 is also different than what the TV series technology could do.

They may have the same names and similar aesthetics, but the tech is different in the reboot universe. That's probably for the better as that gives the writers a bit more freedom to write whatever story they want to without constraints, IMO.

We could take it to mean they discovered transwarp prior to or during the Constitution class design program. So, while warp to warp fighting works with normal warp it stopped working with the new warp until the Vengeance.

 

[Timo]

The loss of a high-valued starship to a totally unknown threat would have some pretty serious implications, I think.

Agreed. But the loss of a cheapo border cutter like the TOS ships would still lead to major upheavals when associated with the loss of entire star systems to the beasts that did in those ships...

Kelvin may have been a big ship (although the rest of the "legacy fleet" in the movies is big, too), but that doesn't make her fate stand out all that much in the greater scheme of things. Between 2233 and 2258, Starfleet's various assets would probably run into dozens upon dozens of threats as imposing as the Narada, if not more so - after all, ShatnerKirk alone did, in a far shorter span of time.

So it could be that the Narada's "missiles" are actually mid 24th century Disruptors. That is, surplus military hardware purchased (or stolen/salvaged) by Nero, who has already devoted himself to a life of piracy and terrorism.

A good idea. It's too bad this means Nero ceases to be a regular bluecollar driven to madness by planet-sized grief, but I think I could live with that. (The tattoos would then be a "Romulan Space Pirate Thing" rather than a "Romulan Asteroid Miner Thing".)

However, we get two Naradas, in a way, in that it versus the Enterprise and Kelvin it can only handle one ship, and not even all that quickly, but against the fleet at Vulcan it wins with ease. I imagine it mined Vulcan's orbit somehow.

A noteworthy issue is the Enterprise being no better equipped to cope with the attack of the Narada than the Kelvin was.

That is, Pike's ship takes one hit and doesn't yet lose weapons but suffers heavy damage anyway and benefits little from having shields up. This is IMHO no better showing than Robau's ship losing weapons twice in a barrage of multiple missiles (but quickly restoring them afterwards).

If Starfleet did improve its shipbuilding technologies or doctrines as a response to the Narada, it failed to achieve anything concrete.

In all likelihood the 2009 universe is already an alternate universe. Star Trek: Enterprise had warp speed phaser combat capability while Star Trek Into Darkness appeared to make that unique to the Vengeance. The lack of long range at warp scanning capability of the Enterprise in Star Trek 09 is also different than what the TV series technology could do.

I don't think we have to believe in such things at all.

Kirk thought the Vengeance would be no threat because the Enterprise had managed to get to warp. This is consistent with all other Trek if Kirk is simply thinking that his own ship is the fastest animal in Starfleet's current zoo, perhaps by a wide margin. He simply doesn't know Starfleet has a secret engine system that is thrice as fast... A completely standard at-warp fight then ensues.

Why would there be any lack of "long range warp scanning ability" in the 2009 movie? There's nothing the scanners could see - when the Cadet Armada nears Vulcan, Nero is basically hugging the surface of the planet in his low-flying mining platform, and when Pike's ship approaches with slightly more caution, all the interesting stuff such as wreckage clouds is also below the horizon, almost touching the surface already.

Clearly subspace signals travel to and from warping starships just as always, as Pike is supposed to be in communications with the rest of the formation (and worries when hearing nothing of the Truman).

Whether the warp we see in the 2250s-60s in the new movies is qualitatively different from TOS warp, remains to be established. We never learn how long exactly it took to get to Vulcan - anything from minutes to days is possible. All we know is that getting to Qo'noS and back seems to happen within a day (if we believe Scotty's offhand remark), but considering "Broken Bow", that's not much of an achievement...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

In all likelihood the 2009 universe is already an alternate universe. Star Trek: Enterprise had warp speed phaser combat capability while Star Trek Into Darkness appeared to make that unique to the Vengeance. The lack of long range at warp scanning capability of the Enterprise in Star Trek 09 is also different than what the TV series technology could do.

I don't think we have to believe in such things at all.

We don't have to believe but it does make the discrepancies easier to explain

Kirk thought the Vengeance would be no threat because the Enterprise had managed to get to warp. This is consistent with all other Trek if Kirk is simply thinking that his own ship is the fastest animal in Starfleet's current zoo, perhaps by a wide margin.

Unfortunately that's not how the scene plays out. Sulu says, "I'm getting a reading that I don't understand", not "I'm picking up on a ship closing on us." Fighting at warp doesn't appear to be possible for the Enterprise.

Also, it is inconsistent with all other Trek because the Enterprise's sensors could tell that they were outrunning the pursuers ("The Deadly Years") or was prepared for a fight ("The Enterprise Incident", "Journey to Babel").

Why would there be any lack of "long range warp scanning ability" in the 2009 movie? There's nothing the scanners could see - when the Cadet Armada nears Vulcan, Nero is basically hugging the surface of the planet in his low-flying mining platform, and when Pike's ship approaches with slightly more caution, all the interesting stuff such as wreckage clouds is also below the horizon, almost touching the surface already.

In the movie, Pike is only able to scan for emitted signals (specifically communications which is how Uhura got to be on the bridge). There is no comments about using the sensors being able to see the planet or what's in orbit. Both the Narada and the Enterprise don't see each other till the Enterprise drops out of warp.

That's really not an issue if it's a casual trip but since Pike's only option to scan ahead is to listen for transmissions it's a lack of long-range warp scanning ability.

Contrast that to the TSFS Enterprise spotting a small ship in orbit in "The Search for Spock" or TOS Enterprise scanning the destroyed outposts in "Balance of Terror" while approaching or flying by at warp.

 

[Timo]

Sulu says, "I'm getting a reading that I don't understand", not "I'm picking up on a ship closing on us." Fighting at warp doesn't appear to be possible for the Enterprise.

Fighting is not possible because Sulu is getting a reading? Simpler IMHO to just accept that it's not possible to fight at warp when you have been knocked out by a vicious attack...

Also, it is inconsistent with all other Trek because the Enterprise's sensors could tell

No, that's where it's consistent - the sensors here could tell, too. Sulu said so.

It's just that when you have minutes to ponder such things, the scenes play out differently from when you have seconds to do so.

There is no comments about using the sensors being able to see the planet or what's in orbit.

But no comment about not using them, either. There seldom is such commentary in any Trek: in "wreckage" adventures, the Enterprise establishes orbit first, and a derelict vessel or her remains are spotted thereafter (except in "Bread and Circuses" where deep space wreckage is first spotted, then the course to a nearby planet calculated).

Both the Narada and the Enterprise don't see each other till the Enterprise drops out of warp.

Tellingly, they don't see each other even then. That only comes much later, after the hero ship clears the wreckage. So warp travel has nothing to do with this issue.

That's really not an issue if it's a casual trip but since Pike's only option to scan ahead is to listen for transmissions it's a lack of long-range warp scanning ability.

What "option"? He isn't interested in scanning - the Truman is apparently leading the formation, and Pike is just trying to catch up with that ship.

Odds are that his ship is the one the least capable of conducting rescue ops to begin with, as so many of Pike's bridge crew are replaced by newcomers. Which is only natural: the other ships may have been close to operational status, but the Enterprise still had her maiden voyage somewhere in the not-immediate future.

Contrast that to the TSFS Enterprise spotting a small ship in orbit in "The Search for Spock" or TOS Enterprise scanning the destroyed outposts in "Balance of Terror" while approaching or flying by at warp.

The latter case was just a matter of reacting to advance warning. In the former, Chekov expected to see a single ship (the Grissom); why would super-low Vulcan orbit be scanned for single ships when it should probably host dozens?

Throughout Trek, the gold standard is to go places and then scan, unless there are truly pressing reasons to do otherwise. In the 2009 adventure, there was no such reason in evidence.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

Throughout Trek, the gold standard is to go places and then scan, unless there are truly pressing reasons to do otherwise. In the 2009 adventure, there was no such reason in evidence.

Your own statement and the 2009 movie proves my point since Pike is concerned enough to order a "scan" and raise shields and also went to red alert.

KIRK: We're warping into a trap, sir. The Romulans are waiting for us, I promise you that.
SPOCK: The Cadet's logic is sound. And Lieutenant Uhura is unmatched in xenolinguistics, we would be wise to accept her conclusion.
PIKE: Scan Vulcan space, check for any transmissions in Romulan.
...
PIKE: Hannity, hail the USS Truman.
HANNITY: All the other ships are out of warp, sir, and have arrived at Vulcan, but we seemed to have lost all contact.
UHURA: Sir, I pick up no Romulan transmission, or transmission of any kind in the area.
KIRK: It's because they're being attacked.
PIKE: Shields up, red alert.
​

So where's the dialogue that goes, "sensors are picking up a massive firefight from high energy readings" or "scanning a large unidentified ship in orbit" or "unable to detect the presence of our fleet"?

Instead all they are capable of doing here is listening for radio transmissions. Are you able to show otherwise that they could have done some other type of scanning?

Sulu says, "I'm getting a reading that I don't understand", not "I'm picking up on a ship closing on us." Fighting at warp doesn't appear to be possible for the Enterprise.

Fighting is not possible because Sulu is getting a reading? Simpler IMHO to just accept that it's not possible to fight at warp when you have been knocked out by a vicious attack...

If Sulu couldn't understand his sensor reading that another ship was closing on them at warp speed then it is obvious that they were not outfitted or capable of fighting at warp speed. You can't have a warp battle if your ship's sensors are not useful for that purpose, IMHO.

 

[Go-Captain]

Instead all they are capable of doing here is listening for radio transmissions. Are you able to show otherwise that they could have done some other type of scanning?

If Sulu couldn't understand his sensor reading that another ship was closing on them at warp speed then it is obvious that they were not outfitted or capable of fighting at warp speed. You can't have a warp battle if your ship's sensors are not useful for that purpose, IMHO.

Trek2009 sensors are extremely poor in comparison regular Trek. It's like they don't even have anything with range beyond visual range. If they would lay that out specifically it would be interesting, but leaving as an unstated piece of guess work is aggravating, because they should have far more capability than shown.
http://www.trekbbs.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[T'Girl]

Ok... so the Narada travelled back in time and destroyed the USS Kelvin.

The Narada shot up the Kelvin, the Kelvin was destroyed by deliberately ramming the Narada.

Well, even scant sensor data of the Narada from shuttles might have provided some insight into the types of weapons it used, along with hull materials, etc.

Never have bought into this idea that every shuttle and life boat carries a copy of the ship's records. At best, Starfleet would have been able to debrief surviving bridge officers on what they recall.

***

When it comes to the sensor capabilities of the Enterprise in the movie, I think it's relevant that the ship came out of warp into a debris field and they pretty obviously didn't know it was there.

In Unnatural Selection, the Enterprise Dee was able to detect the Lantree while the Enterprise was at warp, and the Lantree wasn't. The Enterprise came out of warp next to the Lantree ...

... and didn't have to desperately maneuver to avoid hitting it.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Unfortunately that's not how the scene plays out. Sulu says, "I'm getting a reading that I don't understand", not "I'm picking up on a ship closing on us." Fighting at warp doesn't appear to be possible for the Enterprise.

Well, no... INTERCEPTING a ship at warp isn't possible for the Enterprise (or any similar ship equipped with what is, in all probability, a transwarp drive). Sulu doesn't understand this reading because his sensors are telling him there's another warp signature in the vortex with him; there's literally no way (that he knows of) for another ship to be in the vortex with him, so his reaction is "What the fuck is causing that?"

Present example: USS Dallas is confronted with a giant submarine of a design they've never seen before. Captain crash dives, runs for depth, rigs for silent running. Five minutes later, the sonar operator on Dallas hears the sound of a J-79 turbojet engine being run at full afterburner... except that sound is coming from beneath the ship, a thousand feet deeper. "I'm hearing something I don't understand" he says, five seconds before that giant submarine -- which is equipped with a pair of HTRE-3s modified to run underwater -- nails them at close range with a torpedo.

The scene doesn't tell us that starships can't normally fight at warp, it only tells us that Vengeance getting right on Enterprise's ass like that is not supposed to be possible, especially since Kirk tells Marcus "Carol, we're at warp, he can't catch up to us." This is, again, probably because Enterprise is equipped with transwarp drive which would preclude that kind of intercept in the first place.

Contrast that to the TSFS Enterprise spotting a small ship in orbit in "The Search for Spock" or TOS Enterprise scanning the destroyed outposts in "Balance of Terror" while approaching or flying by at warp.

In TSFS Enterprise doesn't take any scans of Genesis until after it drops out of warp, so that's actually a good comparison. It's just that Sulu dropped them to sublight much farther from Genesis than from a "civilized" world like Vulcan with pre-defined approach lanes that are supposed to be clear of traffic.

And "Balance of terror" doesn't make it clear what speed the Enterprise is going at the time or how those scans are being made. In fact, they even take the time to actually stop and recover debris from the destroyed outposts while they're still chasing the bird of prey. That, plus the fact that part of the intercept involves flying through the tail of a comet with an active and distinct tail, would seem to suggest that the the entirety of Balance of Terror takes place in a single solar system, probably within a few light minutes of Romulus itself. That, too, is consistent with TSFS and ST09.

 

[blssdwlf]

Unfortunately that's not how the scene plays out. Sulu says, "I'm getting a reading that I don't understand", not "I'm picking up on a ship closing on us." Fighting at warp doesn't appear to be possible for the Enterprise.

Well, no... INTERCEPTING a ship at warp isn't possible for the Enterprise (or any similar ship equipped with what is, in all probability, a transwarp drive).

Intercepting by another ship is not the question but whether the Enterprise can detect and know what's going on around it at warp speed. Not all fast things or phenomena will be starships but could be aliens like the "Lights of Zetar".

Sulu's answer is that the 09/STID Enterprise is unable to understand what's going around them at warp.

Sulu doesn't understand this reading because his sensors are telling him there's another warp signature in the vortex with him; there's literally no way (that he knows of) for another ship to be in the vortex with him, so his reaction is "What the fuck is causing that?"

I wish it were that simple. Right before Sulu says "Captain, I'm getting a reading that I don't understand." Carol explained to Kirk that the Vengeance can catch up with them at warp. If the ship and Sulu understood the readings to be another ship or warp signature, Sulu would have confirmed Carol's warning. Sulu did not. He only stated that neither the ship's systems or himself understood what he was seeing on the sensors.

Contrast that to the TSFS Enterprise spotting a small ship in orbit in "The Search for Spock" or TOS Enterprise scanning the destroyed outposts in "Balance of Terror" while approaching or flying by at warp.

In TSFS Enterprise doesn't take any scans of Genesis until after it drops out of warp, so that's actually a good comparison. It's just that Sulu dropped them to sublight much farther from Genesis than from a "civilized" world like Vulcan with pre-defined approach lanes that are supposed to be clear of traffic.

I rechecked and you're right that the Enterprise drops to impulse prior to making the scan in TSFS. This goes to Timo's "don't scan unless it's necessary" observation (paraphrasing).

And "Balance of terror" doesn't make it clear what speed the Enterprise is going at the time or how those scans are being made. In fact, they even take the time to actually stop and recover debris from the destroyed outposts while they're still chasing the bird of prey. That, plus the fact that part of the intercept involves flying through the tail of a comet with an active and distinct tail, would seem to suggest that the the entirety of Balance of Terror takes place in a single solar system, probably within a few light minutes of Romulus itself.

They're clear enough that the Enterprise is at "maximum speed" on approach to Outpost 4 while scanning Outposts 2 and 3. The Enterprise only slows to match the BOP's speed after Outpost 4 is destroyed and then later picks up debris.

The speed of the ship at the time of the comet is irrelevant as we're primarily looking at whether the Enterprise can scan for objects at long distance while at warp - which she can in the prior and later scenes.

 

[blssdwlf]

Trek2009 sensors are extremely poor in comparison regular Trek. It's like they don't even have anything with range beyond visual range. If they would lay that out specifically it would be interesting, but leaving as an unstated piece of guess work is aggravating, because they should have far more capability than shown.

Right. IMHO, the 09 Trekverse appeared to be following the hyperspace model where you go to ftl and you're not longer able to sense what's around you until you drop out. Perhaps the writers wanted to lean more Star Wars and this was their opportunity to do it?

When it comes to the sensor capabilities of the Enterprise in the movie, I think it's relevant that the ship came out of warp into a debris field and they pretty obviously didn't know it was there.

In Unnatural Selection, the Enterprise Dee was able to detect the Lantree while the Enterprise was at warp, and the Lantree wasn't. The Enterprise came out of warp next to the Lantree ...

... and didn't have to desperately maneuver to avoid hitting it.

It seems like the 09 Enterprise had to have everything computed for entry/exit from warp so that it's more like a hyperspace jump.

 

[BK613]

From the Immunity Syndrome:

STARBASE [OC]: Negative. This is a rescue priority. We've lost all contact with solar system Gamma Seven-A, which the Intrepid was investigating. And we've just lost contact with the Intrepid. Report progress.
KIRK: Order acknowledged. Kirk out. Mister Kyle, you heard the order. Set course for Gamma Seven-A, warp five.
KYLE: Aye, sir.
CHEKOV: Captain I have just completed a full long-range scan of Gamma Seven-A system. It is dead.
KIRK: Dead? It's a fourth magnitude sun. There are billions of inhabitants there.
CHEKOV: It is dead.

It should be noted that Kirk walks over and peers into the scanner to verify for himself.