Star Fleet/Federation Culpability
- Thread starter Photon
- Start date
OMG, that was great! That's the Federation attitude right there!
Indeed!!!
Good point
I don't really see what's so special about this particular foe or conflict. The UFP and Starfleet should be facing such scenarios daily. Of course space beyond UFP borders is full of cultures that want to keep alien scum off their own turf while themselves expanding into their neighbors' territory. Of course these will try and gain intel on UFP and its deepest secrets. Of course they will have their own rogue elements that expand or provoke without government approval, or those that hobnob with the UFP in selfish terms. And of course Starfleet should be prepared to meet all these threat/opportunity elements daily, by performing defense, deterrence, reconnaissance and propaganda that makes the UFP the stronger contestant.
So the Dominion was a bit more unknown than the average galactic neighbor. Doesn't change much: Starfleet would still have the same sort of intel capabilities it uses against every other foe, and would have to do the best it can with those. Quite probably, it's simply not possible to make more intel headway than that in two years...
Really, the only thing here that was different from, say, the 2150s encounter with the Romulans was that there was a narrow pass connecting UFP and enemy territory. A rare tactical opportunity there, and I agree that Starfleet was strangely lax in exploiting it. But they should be excused for thinking that the pass could be collapsed with trivial ease if the need arose: this was shown to be possible with the meager means available to Sisko in "The Search II" already. The only reason they suddenly had to start thinking in terms of minefields was "In Purgatory's Shadow" and the completely unexpected technobabbling of the wormhole there so that it would become impervious to collapse.
As for Starfleet keeping closer tabs on adventurers and colonists, I don't see the point. Such elements would always exist, and would always be at risk. It's their lifestyle, their choice. Yes, their risk-taking may endanger the UFP as well - but that's always going to be the case, unless the UFP goes seriously police state. And really, no matter how much the adventurers and colonists piss of the neighboring cultures, that's peanuts compared with the standard level of pissed-offness such cultures will have anyway.
Timo Saloniemi
So the Dominion was a bit more unknown than the average galactic neighbor. Doesn't change much: Starfleet would still have the same sort of intel capabilities it uses against every other foe, and would have to do the best it can with those. Quite probably, it's simply not possible to make more intel headway than that in two years...
Really, the only thing here that was different from, say, the 2150s encounter with the Romulans was that there was a narrow pass connecting UFP and enemy territory. A rare tactical opportunity there, and I agree that Starfleet was strangely lax in exploiting it. But they should be excused for thinking that the pass could be collapsed with trivial ease if the need arose: this was shown to be possible with the meager means available to Sisko in "The Search II" already. The only reason they suddenly had to start thinking in terms of minefields was "In Purgatory's Shadow" and the completely unexpected technobabbling of the wormhole there so that it would become impervious to collapse.
As for Starfleet keeping closer tabs on adventurers and colonists, I don't see the point. Such elements would always exist, and would always be at risk. It's their lifestyle, their choice. Yes, their risk-taking may endanger the UFP as well - but that's always going to be the case, unless the UFP goes seriously police state. And really, no matter how much the adventurers and colonists piss of the neighboring cultures, that's peanuts compared with the standard level of pissed-offness such cultures will have anyway.
Timo Saloniemi
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
I doubt it woould have changed anything.
The dominion was always the one who stepped up the game, not the federation.
The destruction of the Odyssey, then the infiltrations, trying to blow up the bajoran sun, the massive military build-up, the destruction of federation vessels along the border and finally, the war.
The federation, on the other hand, did very little in the gamma quadrant. Even if it would have retreated completely - entrusting to the ferengi the gamma quadrant exploration/diplomacy, it would have made little difference.
As soon as the dominion knew solids in the alpha/beta quadrants could challenge their power, war was inevitable.
Nerys' suggestion seemed to be that the Ferengi should have been allowed to perform their valuable work in addition to whatever else was ongoing, rather than be discouraged from doing it. After all, the Ferengi were having way more success than the UFP, at least as far as we could see. The UFP could then have bought intel and diplomatic services from the Ferengi.
I don't see how the UFP could have encouraged or discouraged the Ferengi here, though. It didn't seem as if there was any political pressure on the Grand Nagus to go one way or another about it. Nor did the Ferengi ever appear to give up their grip of Gamma: as late as "Starship Down", trade with elements of the Dominion was ongoing, and there's no direct evidence that any of the Ferengi connections would have been lost. Some of them simply went on back burner when the wormhole became impassable for a while.
Timo Saloniemi
I don't see how the UFP could have encouraged or discouraged the Ferengi here, though. It didn't seem as if there was any political pressure on the Grand Nagus to go one way or another about it. Nor did the Ferengi ever appear to give up their grip of Gamma: as late as "Starship Down", trade with elements of the Dominion was ongoing, and there's no direct evidence that any of the Ferengi connections would have been lost. Some of them simply went on back burner when the wormhole became impassable for a while.
Timo Saloniemi
Grant them a monopoly or something close to it--some kind of preferred trade terms. THAT would be a deal the Ferengi might be willing to take them up on (especially since normal UFP policy seems to be to squelch and harass usual Ferengi business practices when they get too close to Federation territory).
And I think the Ferengi might've sold information...the UFP might also have been able to place assets into the Gamma Quadrant (either bugs or even people, depending on how they played it). Though of course the safest route would be for the Ferengi to sell information.
The one risk of course would be if they brought back a hidden Changeling and the information trade was witnessed. But there might still be a little more lead time before the war, AND if one started, the Dominion would NOT necessarily have a beachhead on Cardassia Prime.
I have to wonder, though, if Federation policy after the Dominion War will be to order the immediate destruction of any other wormhole they encounter (as long as doing so would not cause undue space-time disruptions). I think that would be a sound policy, myself...which of course means the Federation would never have the guts to REALLY do it. (Post-war Cardassia, and the Klingons, however...)
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
I think the ferengi did have a monopol - with regards to the karema.
And yes, the federation had no means of stopping ferengi business in the gamma quadrant short of embargoing the wormhole - and, untill season 5, this sisn't happen.
Of course, ferengi 'diplomacy' or not, the war was inevitable - the founders were just to hell-bent on it; their actions too single-minded.
About the dominion's cardassian beachhead - one has to admit, the dominion played the cardassians, the klingons and the romulans like puppets:
It outsmarted the tal'shiar and the obsidian order, dealing them a stinging defeat;
It convinced the klingons attack the cardassians, destablilising the entire alpha/beta quadrants;
After that, it - somehow - convinced the cardassians that they were 'friends' - how could so many cardassians be fooled that the founders forgot and forgave all about the attempted destruction of the founder homeworld? That the cardassians were anything more than cannon fodder who would be dealt their due punishment when they were no longer needed to pacify the alpha/beta quadrants
?;
And it convinced the romulans that it will not attack their empire after the romulan empire would be encircled by dominion forces. In this case, at lest, romulan arrogance and overestimation did lead to stupidity: We, alone, can defeat a dominion that previously defeated the combined forces of the federation and the klingons
!
And yes, the federation had no means of stopping ferengi business in the gamma quadrant short of embargoing the wormhole - and, untill season 5, this sisn't happen.
Of course, ferengi 'diplomacy' or not, the war was inevitable - the founders were just to hell-bent on it; their actions too single-minded.
About the dominion's cardassian beachhead - one has to admit, the dominion played the cardassians, the klingons and the romulans like puppets:
It outsmarted the tal'shiar and the obsidian order, dealing them a stinging defeat;
It convinced the klingons attack the cardassians, destablilising the entire alpha/beta quadrants;
After that, it - somehow - convinced the cardassians that they were 'friends' - how could so many cardassians be fooled that the founders forgot and forgave all about the attempted destruction of the founder homeworld? That the cardassians were anything more than cannon fodder who would be dealt their due punishment when they were no longer needed to pacify the alpha/beta quadrants
?;And it convinced the romulans that it will not attack their empire after the romulan empire would be encircled by dominion forces. In this case, at lest, romulan arrogance and overestimation did lead to stupidity: We, alone, can defeat a dominion that previously defeated the combined forces of the federation and the klingons
!
^It wasn't the Cardassian Union that attacked their homeworld, it was Obsidian Order, and TalShiar, infiltrated by changelings. It was probably easy to convince Dukat.
The Romulan thing is more problematic. It must have been due to political divisions withing the senate. May be one faction wanted to fight immediately, but the majority of Senators wanted to wait for the Allies or the Dominion to start winning and weaken, before Romulans moved in for the kill?
The Romulan thing is more problematic. It must have been due to political divisions withing the senate. May be one faction wanted to fight immediately, but the majority of Senators wanted to wait for the Allies or the Dominion to start winning and weaken, before Romulans moved in for the kill?
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
I think the ferengi did have a monopol - with regards to the karema.
And yes, the federation had no means of stopping ferengi business in the gamma quadrant short of embargoing the wormhole - and, untill season 5, this sisn't happen.
Of course, ferengi 'diplomacy' or not, the war was inevitable - the founders were just to hell-bent on it; their actions too single-minded.
About the dominion's cardassian beachhead - one has to admit, the dominion played the cardassians, the klingons and the romulans like puppets:
It outsmarted the tal'shiar and the obsidian order, dealing them a stinging defeat;
It convinced the klingons attack the cardassians, destablilising the entire alpha/beta quadrants;
After that, it - somehow - convinced the cardassians that they were 'friends' - how could so many cardassians be fooled that the founders forgot and forgave all about the attempted destruction of the founder homeworld? That the cardassians were anything more than cannon fodder who would be dealt their due punishment when they were no longer needed to pacify the alpha/beta quadrants
And it convinced the romulans that it will not attack their empire after the romulan empire would be encircled by dominion forces. In this case, at lest, romulan arrogance and overestimation did lead to stupidity: We, alone, can defeat a dominion that previously defeated the combined forces of the federation and the klingons
It wasn't us that tried to kill you, it was our secret service!
The cardassians were really deluded if they thought the founders will make this distinction.
All the dominion had to do was to dangle a "you'll conquer/expand over this and that" carrot in the cardassians' faces and their IQ dropped by half
.If that was the romulans' plan - wait for the Allies or the Dominion to weaken - , they were doing a VERY poor job at implementing it:
By 'In the pale moonlight', the federation/klingons were losing - badly.
The romulans were 'convinced' to enter the war then - and this barely equalled the forces; it was far from overwhelming superiority over the dominion.
But the romulans did not intend to enter the war then - not even close. They wanted eihter not to enter the war, believing the dominion non-agression promises
, or to wait - at least - until the the dominion was almost done with the federation and the klingons. At that point, the romulans entering the war would have made no difference to the dominion victory. Of course, the romulans thought differently - the very definition of arrogance induced stupidity.