Spoilers ST Discovery - Starships and Technology Season Four Discussion

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Mark_Nguyen, Nov 2, 2021.

  1. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The UFP Replication tech in the 24th century certainly suggested that... aka, that they convert energy into matter.
    That's why consuming all matter in one's star system (or all of them) seems ridiculous as a suggestion even.... because its completely unnecessary (even in real life without access to energy to matter conversion technology - but it REALLY isn't technically even needed to achieve the same effect).

    Also, one thing people don't take into consideration is 'technical efficiency' (aka, Ephemerialization), the ability to produce more and more with less and less over time.
    Even Buckminster Fuller stated that over time, you will perfect this method to such a degree where you will be able to create everything with virtually nothing.

    That means as time goes on, a civilization will be able to find scientific and technical solutions that will allow it to produce abundance in material goods (whatever form it may take) in ever increasing quantities with less and less overall resources over time.

    For example, there are numerous synthetic replacements for so called 'scarce' materials which can be produced in sustainable abundance with superior properties and much lower impact to the environment compared to what is used now... however, our current production methodology and ways of thinking are relatively outdated... and they conform to 'cost efficiency' and accumulation of profit rather than technical efficiency and problem solving.
    A lot of the manufacturing plants are modified so that new technologies can be made with those older (or pre-existing) processes... mainly because this saves them money in the long run - plus it is also easier sometimes to just use what is already there (which is good if its viable).

    However, a more viable method (or at least one beneficial for the long run) would be that every once in a while (say every 5 to 10 years or so for this day and age), existing manufacturing plants would have to be razed for their raw material, and this matter to be used to create new (state of the art) manufacturing plants using same area as occupied by previous manuf. plants so that we can upgrade more frequently with the times.

    Molecular and atomic scale manufacturing technologies have been developed in 2015 and 2018, and yet we have no full fledged manufacturing plants based off those alone.
    Heck, majority of manufacturing is not even 3D printer based (and that has been available as a technology for a long time now).

    It just shows our socio-economic system is lagging drastically behind with most breakthroughs in science and technology.
    If we had more up to date methods, we could catch up far faster and easily. Right now, we'd need a large push into that direction though.
     
  2. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    According to the TNG Technical Manuals, The VAST Majority of Replication didn't use raw energy to matter, that is WAY TOO ENERGY INTENSIVE of a process and is ENERGY inefficient compared to prepared raw matter stocks.

    They have raw matter stores to assemble pre-existing common matter into the final product.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    While "Technical Efficiency" is generally the overall desired goal for most people, Spending VAST AMOUNTS of Energy to convert RAW Energy to final material is a FOOLS ERRAND.
    It's FAR more efficient to use RAW matter stocks and convert what is needed, as necessary, using the minimal amount of energy possible.

    Especially when you're on a StarShip, far away from the larger industrial support facilities.

    I know you like to do the hand wavium and think that StarFleet should be "Proto Q" type folks, but let's try to bring the tech closer to reality.

    It's still more "Inefficient" to try to mass produce your Synthetic Replacements at this point in time.

    With enough Mass Production Scale, you MIGHT get to equilibrium with what current Petroleum might come to, but you under estimate the many uses we have for raw petroleum and how much we benefit from it.
    [​IMG]

    Right now, we have a Helium Shortage again, on top of all the other shortages due to the Ukrainian Invasion by Russia.

    And Helium comes from Natural Gas production. Helium is critical to many technologies, and wasting it on Party Balloons is the stupidest thing possible.

    That's COMICALLY inefficient. The optimum solution is to leave the current plant as is and make a brand new plant using the latest manufacturing technologies.

    You only need to look at the Semi-Conductor Fab Market and see how they operate.

    They leave old Fabs in place, build new ones.

    The Base Financial costs for Manufacturing Equipment, Facility Setup, Debugging, Testing costs for older Fabs are dealt with, so they're left in place as a money makers, while new Semi-Conductor Fabs gets erected to make the latest and greatest tech.

    Old Process Node technology still have their place. Not everything needs the latest & greatest Semiconductor Fab Process nodes.

    The reason Mass Molecular / Atomic Scale Manufacturing isn't around now, is because it's not ready.

    3D Printed Plastics are nowhere near as good as quality plastics made for traditional goods.

    If you understood how the 3D Printer technology works, it's good for a select few items & proto typing, but it's NO-WHERE close to mass production levels of manufacturing efficiency or quality.

    The problem isn't Socio-Economic.

    What's lagging isn't the amount of Break Throughs. The vast majority of Lab Break Throughs don't easily translate to Mass Production.

    There's a WORLD of difference between what you can accomplish in the lab, and what you can accomplish at scale through automated mass production.

    I think you're being to naive in thinking things are that easy to make happen.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2022
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  3. Mark_Nguyen

    Mark_Nguyen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So, closing it off in 4x13:

    - I guess we still don't know where the closest M-Class world to Earth is? We dunno if it's Alpha Centauri or not, as there are lots of oblique references to people going or coming from there, but not if it's the kind of place you can evacuate to without worrying about overloading an outpost's life support capacity. But assuming it was a planet you can warp to, dump off your evacuated passengers in the shortest amount of time, and warp back for another load, could you evacuate more than 450,000 people in whatever time they had to do it? And with how many ships, assuming

    - Starfleet Headquarters itself, while not huge, is still a warp-capable ship unto itself. It's also some sort of gestalt vehicle with independent sections also capable of warp. I'm guessing they'll eventually head back there despite Earth rejoining the Federation, there's probably at least one spacedock left behind...

    - The USS Mitchell (named I presume for the first one who walked on the moon and not the one who went all god-like) states they're going to make a "jump" out of Earth space. That's not REALLY standard Trek vocabulary, but given how going to warp is portrayed in this era of Trek, it's not incorrect IMO.

    - USS Yelchin! Presumably with a registry of NCC-4774-F, since the -E's black box was one Burnham was after early last season.

    - What was the point of the array of shuttles parked out front like that? I guess it's to give the feel of a large audience, but are we to believe they're all there to watch President Stacey come aboard? It does looknice though, with the shuttles and all those starships arranged in a nice formation, instead of at haphazard orientations to each other like they were at SFHQ's previous location.

    - And for an official reception, it's weird that only Michael and Saru are in dress uniforms. The two nameless Starfleet extras are in standard duty uniforms, as are Stacey's guards.

    - Likewise, no one bothered to clean up the bay like it was for the speeches in 4x01, there are cargo pods randomly strewn around the space. Fine, it's JUST after a planetary emergency, but it's still a big deal.

    Mark
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2022
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  4. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Were the classes shown for the Mitchell and the Yelchin?
     
  5. Captain Kris Kringle Pike

    Captain Kris Kringle Pike Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Isn't that inline with TOS though?
     
  6. Andru

    Andru Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Mitchell is clearly shown as a Merian-class ship, registry NCC-325027.
    Yelchin is not seen, but... Just after her commander sends 'see you on the other side' there's a tiny Saturn-class warping away in the station viewer, so that might be it.
     
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  7. Mark_Nguyen

    Mark_Nguyen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It is, as well as occasions in the TNG era where the hero crew welcomes a dignitary aboard in the dress uniforms while the transporter chief is excused from the need. I guess I'm saying that the production clearly HAS dress uniforms available from 4x01, why not use those costumes and find the right-sized actors to pour into them?

    Mark
     
  8. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Commodore Commodore

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    Kinda wish they'd show more of the other 32nd century ships.
    It was nice to see the the HQ at warp
     
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  9. Mark_Nguyen

    Mark_Nguyen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I suspect that a really close up look at the 32C ships will disappoint more than they already do. They surely have more detail that's worth looking at, but TBH whenever we DO get a close up look at a hull, say with the Mitchell in this finale or the Voyager-J last year, it shows a fairly smooth hull with few greeblies or much to distract from the basic hull shapes we can see from afar. I suspect this was a design choice anyway, but it means that what we've seen so far is basically most of what there is to see.

    Even that giant flying rainforest ship, possibly the most detailed on account of the rainforest contained within, wasn't even seen this season, and possibly others too. We got the USS Creedence in its place (also mentioned in the finale after its one-shot appearance earlier on), but even that was a bit of a cheat as we only saw a corridor interior that was a re-use of the Discovery corridors. The SFHQ sets really should have been used for that, IMO.

    All told, we haven't really SEEN much of the 32C Starfleet has to offer, aside from an okay SFHQ (which is a heavy redress of the trusty USS Shenzhou bridge set) and some very thinly-upgraded Discovery sets. It'd be great to see more, but IMO the 32C design motifs are kinda bland compared to what we've imported from Discovery's 23C aesthetic. I think the audience has had plenty of living inside an Apple Store from the JJ movies and is looking for something distinct which looks sufficiently advanced without looking so white and sanitized.

    There's an opportunity here to redefine the look of this era of Starfleet, as technically everything we've seen so far are leftovers from pre-burn ships and facilities, and I think they should take it. IMO the DSC producers can, and possibly should, look to other "far future" shows for inspiration. Foundation, Raised By Wolves, and I guess even a little of Dune showcase civilizations that are thousands of years into the future, and they look great with probably a similar level of expense to create. Except Dune, I guess. :P

    Mark
     
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  10. Ronald Held

    Ronald Held Vice Admiral Admiral

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    With PM, why have a hull festooned with equipment, when you can create it on demand?
     
  11. Captain Kris Kringle Pike

    Captain Kris Kringle Pike Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I personally like the 32nd century, at least as a distinct era, from the 24th/25th century. The ships feel like they each serve a specific purpose, which makes them far more enjoyable to look at on screen. Could there be more detail? Sure, but as it stand what is presented is really good as a foundation for more.

    Why waste the time?
     
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  12. Ronald Held

    Ronald Held Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe if you are in combat?
     
  13. Captain Kris Kringle Pike

    Captain Kris Kringle Pike Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I would want weapons ready.
     
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  14. Mark_Nguyen

    Mark_Nguyen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There may be some element of this already. For starters, we haven't really seen anything that could be defined as a weapons port on the 32C ships. Perhaps this could mean that they have a solution for phasers or torpedoes to emerge from wherever makes the most sense? The Discovery refit did away with her traditional ball turrets, but didn't replace them with anything like a phaser strip (analogues of which MAY be on some of the 32C designs), to say nothing of the never-defined torpedo tubes. There ARE ports of a sort on the Discovery's hull which may be weapons, but it's not like we've seen them in action close up yet.

    OTOH, PM may be a luxury... That deep space repair station needed some, and they seemed satisfied with the football's worth that they beamed over. But OTOOH the backwater bar that first featured the stuff may suggest otherwise.

    Mark
     
  15. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I've always wondered, how did the Distortion Field for the 32nd StarFleet HQ work?

    Given how power hungry cloaking tech from the 24th century is and how energy efficient minded the 32nd century tech would be, especially given "The Burn".

    Also when the USS Discovery enters the Distortion Field, it looks like Programmable Matter moving apart to let the ship in.

    The Distortion Field seems to double as standard "Shields".

    It seems to visually show what's on the other side of the Distortion Field like a primitive form of cloaking where you actually display what is immediately behind you.
     
  16. Markonian

    Markonian Fleet Admiral Moderator

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    While this thread is about Season 4 tech, there's a bit of news regarding a Season 2 starship.
    The upcoming [SIZE=6]Star Trek Adventures Utopia Planitia Starfleet Sourcebook [/SIZE]assigns/reveals the class designation for the medical frigate USS Hiawatha (NCC-814):
    Hiawatha class.
     
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