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[SPOILER, spoiler] and emotional Spock

datalogan

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
Remember Kirk's iconic “Khan” scream from Star Trek II?
While some have said it was just Shatner overacting, I believe Kirk was purposely exaggerating that scream. It’s Kirk who is overacting, not (just) Shatner.

Remember what was happening in the movie at that moment. Sure, Khan had just stole Genesis, and he had chosen to leave Kirk down on the planetoid to stew (“buried alive”), and there were a number of people that had just died (including Clark Terrell and a scientist). There were plenty of reasons to be frustrated and angry. But Kirk also had knowledge that Khan didn’t have. This is just shortly after Kirk and Spock had talked over the comms in “code”. Kirk knew that the Enterprise would be repaired and in much better fighting shape in just under 2 hours. And he knew that he still had good comms with the Enterprise. And he knew that Khan did not know these things. (Of course, the other people in the Genesis caves also did not know these things. Kirk never told them; possibly because he likes to show off.)
Yes, Kirk was angry and frustrated. But not as much as he seemed. I think Kirk purposely exaggerated that scream because he wanted to mislead Khan. He wanted Khan to think that Khan really did have the upper hand, that Kirk was becoming a little unglued, that Kirk really was “buried alive”. But that wasn’t true. Kirk was not becoming unglued. He knew he just needed to wait about 2 hours, then call Spock and they could beam up and go after Khan again. I think it’s a brilliant scene. It really shows you how great a strategist Kirk is, how much he was playing Khan. It also shows you how full-of-himself Kirk was; because he didn’t share his plan with anyone. He was cocky; he thought he was untouchable; and that all comes crashing down when he has to lose Spock later in the movie.
I like the layers on layers that this scene represents in the movie. And it’s one of those moments (like the Kobayashi Maru scenario) where the characters are acting, not just the actors.

All that being said, the "Khan" scream from nuSpock in STiD just bugs me. The only reason Kirk screamed like that in STII was because he was acting on an open comm with Khan to throw Khan off. But that's not the case in STiD with nuSpock's scream. And yet nuSpock's scream in STiD seems louder and more anguished than Kirk's in STII. Are we supposed to believe that nuSpock's Vulcan-controlled emotions result in a louder scream than Kirk's "faked" scream? Doesn't seem right IMO. Remember when (the original TOS) Spock was faced with Kirk's death in "Amok Time"?--a time when his Vulcan emotions were very much at the surface due to his pon farr--Spock did not scream in anguish or yell at the killer (himself). He kept himself in check. And even later, when he found out Kirk was not dead, he only reacted with a "soft" shout--and then quickly got himself back into control within seconds. Yet this nuSpock lost so much control that he went on an almost murderous rampage to attack Khan--a man possibly not even directly responsible for Kirk's death. Kirk died to stop the ship from falling, which was due to the power loss--really unexplained in the film--that happened after Khan's ship was taken out by torpedoes. Yes, most likely it was due to Khan's latest attack, but also could have been caused by Section 31's earlier attack or sabotage.

We just have to keep making excuses for nuSpock's emotions coming out all the time. He's young. His planet /race/mother was destroyed. He mind melded with an emotional dying man. He's lost his "best" friend--who he's only known a year or so. And yes, I know Vulcan emotions are actually much more "powerful" than Human ones. But Vulcan upbringing should have prepared Spock for that more. I'm getting tired of having to explain away all this non-Vulcan behavior--all this non-Spock-like behavior. Hopefully in the next film we'll move beyond this young version of the crew and on to a version closer to the TOS crew I like.
 
Shouldn't you change the topic title? Even though I can not imagine, I suppose there are still people who don't know about Khan being in the film, and your topic title kind of ruins that.
 
Remember Kirk's iconic “Khan” scream from Star Trek II?
Yes, but please don't put spoilers right there in the thread title. That makes it visible on the forum index and main index, and people do like to be surprised when they see things for the first time in the theatre.

Further, you've just made what appears to be this same post in this thread, and there's another already-existing thread discussing the same scene. Do you think it would be all right if we just carried on talking about this question in one of those other threads?
 
Remember Kirk's iconic “Khan” scream from Star Trek II?
While some have said it was just Shatner overacting, I believe Kirk was purposely exaggerating that scream. It’s Kirk who is overacting, not (just) Shatner.

Remember what was happening in the movie at that moment. Sure, Khan had just stole Genesis, and he had chosen to leave Kirk down on the planetoid to stew (“buried alive”), and there were a number of people that had just died (including Clark Terrell and a scientist). There were plenty of reasons to be frustrated and angry. But Kirk also had knowledge that Khan didn’t have. This is just shortly after Kirk and Spock had talked over the comms in “code”. Kirk knew that the Enterprise would be repaired and in much better fighting shape in just under 2 hours. And he knew that he still had good comms with the Enterprise. And he knew that Khan did not know these things. (Of course, the other people in the Genesis caves also did not know these things. Kirk never told them; possibly because he likes to show off.)
Yes, Kirk was angry and frustrated. But not as much as he seemed. I think Kirk purposely exaggerated that scream because he wanted to mislead Khan. He wanted Khan to think that Khan really did have the upper hand, that Kirk was becoming a little unglued, that Kirk really was “buried alive”. But that wasn’t true. Kirk was not becoming unglued. He knew he just needed to wait about 2 hours, then call Spock and they could beam up and go after Khan again. I think it’s a brilliant scene. It really shows you how great a strategist Kirk is, how much he was playing Khan. It also shows you how full-of-himself Kirk was; because he didn’t share his plan with anyone. He was cocky; he thought he was untouchable; and that all comes crashing down when he has to lose Spock later in the movie.
I like the layers on layers that this scene represents in the movie. And it’s one of those moments (like the Kobayashi Maru scenario) where the characters are acting, not just the actors.

All that being said, the "Khan" scream from nuSpock in STiD just bugs me. The only reason Kirk screamed like that in STII was because he was acting on an open comm with Khan to throw Khan off. But that's not the case in STiD with nuSpock's scream. And yet nuSpock's scream in STiD seems louder and more anguished than Kirk's in STII. Are we supposed to believe that nuSpock's Vulcan-controlled emotions result in a louder scream than Kirk's "faked" scream? Doesn't seem right IMO. Remember when (the original TOS) Spock was faced with Kirk's death in "Amok Time"?--a time when his Vulcan emotions were very much at the surface due to his pon farr--Spock did not scream in anguish or yell at the killer (himself). He kept himself in check. And even later, when he found out Kirk was not dead, he only reacted with a "soft" shout--and then quickly got himself back into control within seconds. Yet this nuSpock lost so much control that he went on an almost murderous rampage to attack Khan--a man possibly not even directly responsible for Kirk's death. Kirk died to stop the ship from falling, which was due to the power loss--really unexplained in the film--that happened after Khan's ship was taken out by torpedoes. Yes, most likely it was due to Khan's latest attack, but also could have been caused by Section 31's earlier attack or sabotage.

We just have to keep making excuses for nuSpock's emotions coming out all the time. He's young. His planet /race/mother was destroyed. He mind melded with an emotional dying man. He's lost his "best" friend--who he's only known a year or so. And yes, I know Vulcan emotions are actually much more "powerful" than Human ones. But Vulcan upbringing should have prepared Spock for that more. I'm getting tired of having to explain away all this non-Vulcan behavior--all this non-Spock-like behavior. Hopefully in the next film we'll move beyond this young version of the crew and on to a version closer to the TOS crew I like.

What are you explaining, though? It sounds like you're trying to cover for Quinto's Spock by using Nimoy's Spock as a bridge, which you just can't do that. This is an alternate timeline/universe, and events have lead to much different pathways for our heroes.

It's only non-Spock because you're still comparing the timelines. Don't.
 
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