Consider all the arguments Spock and McCoy had. Who came out the victor overall?
Poll Spock vs McCoy; who won?
- Thread starter Laura Cynthia Chambers
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Tied. I give credit to Bones for being smart enough to debate a Vulcan to a stalemate. "The best I should have been able to achieve was a draw." Indeed.
And incidentally, the Enterprise certainly had four pretty intelligent people among its captain, first and second officers, and CMO. Not bad. No wonder they made it back in one piece from the five-year mission.
And incidentally, the Enterprise certainly had four pretty intelligent people among its captain, first and second officers, and CMO. Not bad. No wonder they made it back in one piece from the five-year mission.
That is a huge question that makes me want to rewatch the entire series, log each disagreement Spock & McCoy had, and mark a "victor" for each debate. But since I don't have the time to do that right now, I'll just say they tied. 
Spock usually seemed to win because his arguments were more logical, but McCoy scored some major victories along the way, like during their jail cell scene in "Bread and Circuses."
Spock usually seemed to win because his arguments were more logical, but McCoy scored some major victories along the way, like during their jail cell scene in "Bread and Circuses."
I wouldn't consider most of the exchanges between them to be arguments. They needled each other; they sniped; they took potshots at each other's reasoning processes. Zingers and snark. They each spoke with a confidence that theirs was the correct viewpoint, but it was almost never the sort of contest in which one of them won and one lost.
McCoy's attacks seemed to mostly consist of racism, while Spock riposted with less-racist responses.
I have to give the contest to Spock. "Less racist" beats "blatantly racist".
I have to give the contest to Spock. "Less racist" beats "blatantly racist".
Actually, I suppose you could say Kirk wins, because he gets the benefit of both their opinions, which balance each other out.
I totally hear you - the writing for McCoy was all over the place. By S3 they had it figured out.
Spock's arguments were more......err.......logical and he ended up being right more often than not but not all the time. Also while he did egg the doctor on and could be a bit condescending some of the stuff McCoy said could constitute racism. If I recall Gene said he regretted that since the whole point was that humanity was supposed to be past that, not that they'd just started directing it at other people. Although he obviously overcompensated with the "no conflict" rules early on in TNG.
While I like Spock and I wish we could have seen him actually being a captain with his own ship at some point If I could pick I'd still rather have Kirk calling the shots. Spock played the percentages so often that someone who was aware of that could take advantage of it. Kirk had just the right amount of unpredictability and game theory ("If they know that I know x......exc) mixed with being reasonable.
While I like Spock and I wish we could have seen him actually being a captain with his own ship at some point If I could pick I'd still rather have Kirk calling the shots. Spock played the percentages so often that someone who was aware of that could take advantage of it. Kirk had just the right amount of unpredictability and game theory ("If they know that I know x......exc) mixed with being reasonable.
When I was a kid watching Star Trek, I thought Spock and McCoy each gave as good as they got. But when we did the Production Order and 50th Anniversary rewatches, I paid more attention, and it really seems to me that McCoy was the aggressor most of the time. Oh, Spock gets his digs in, but I now think McCoy could be really mean-spirited at times.
Someone mentioned their conversation in Bread and Circuses:
MCCOY: Do you know why you're not afraid to die, Spock? You're more afraid of living. Each day you stay alive is just one more day you might slip and let your human half peek out. That's it, isn't it? Insecurity. Why, you wouldn't know what to do with a genuine, warm, decent feeling.
I think that's pretty damn mean. And I think McCoy was pretty damn mean in The Tholian Web too, though maybe that's due to the unstable space. I can see that McCoy thinks he's doing Spock a favor by trying to shake him out of his logic and get him to feel his feelings, but who gave McCoy that job? And I think he's way harsh about it sometimes. Spock gets his digs in, but he doesn't seem to have an agenda like that, he's just trying to do his job on a ship full of aliens he's trying to understand.
McCoy often goes on rants that let him vent his emotions, but he doesn't necessarily end up being "right". Spock seems "right" more often than not, so I voted for him.
Someone mentioned their conversation in Bread and Circuses:
MCCOY: Do you know why you're not afraid to die, Spock? You're more afraid of living. Each day you stay alive is just one more day you might slip and let your human half peek out. That's it, isn't it? Insecurity. Why, you wouldn't know what to do with a genuine, warm, decent feeling.
I think that's pretty damn mean. And I think McCoy was pretty damn mean in The Tholian Web too, though maybe that's due to the unstable space. I can see that McCoy thinks he's doing Spock a favor by trying to shake him out of his logic and get him to feel his feelings, but who gave McCoy that job? And I think he's way harsh about it sometimes. Spock gets his digs in, but he doesn't seem to have an agenda like that, he's just trying to do his job on a ship full of aliens he's trying to understand.
McCoy often goes on rants that let him vent his emotions, but he doesn't necessarily end up being "right". Spock seems "right" more often than not, so I voted for him.
Even when I was a little kid watching that episode I thought McCoy was being a dick.
Yeah, I think Spock and McCoy's relationship is like...friendly banter most of the time, but it's always Bones who pushes it too far or actually lashes out at Spock. I can't really remember a time when Spock is genuinely mean or hurtful towards McCoy- his insults tend to be of the generic 'illogical human' variety he directs at most of the crew, or jabs about him being a bad doctor, which is patently false and not something Spock actually believes. Like, this is clearly not a subject something McCoy has a complex about lol, he knows he is good at his job.
McCoy is the one who goes for the personal insults. Like the Bread and Circus scene... no shit Spock is insecure! Do you have to needle him about it? Like you said, it's honestly such a mean thing to do to a supposed friend. And Spock's mixed heritage andl is a genuine sensitive subject. I don't think every one of McCoy's 'pointy eared vulcan' comment is evil or anything- the tone matters a lot- but it definitely verges on uncomfortable sometimes. Especially considering the fact that the Enterprise has a mostly human crew TOS, Spock making fun of humans just comes off differently than McCoy's digs about Vulcans.
It's usually when Jim isn't there to mediate that things end up going to far, he's good at defusing the tension between them I think. They're both more Jim's best friend than each others', at least early on.
Anyway, the nature of their squabbling usually means that there's not really a 'right' person most of the time, but I can think of more times when Bones was blatantly in the wrong- so I'm voting for Spock
Spock has the moral high ground?
Maybe it irks McCoy that Spock presents an appearance of placid calm that he himself doesn't feel - he wants the coolest cucumber in the room to validate his roiling emotions.
I wonder what Prime McCoy would think if he saw Kelvinverse Spock whale on Kirk in '09 and Khan in ID.
Maybe it irks McCoy that Spock presents an appearance of placid calm that he himself doesn't feel - he wants the coolest cucumber in the room to validate his roiling emotions.
I wonder what Prime McCoy would think if he saw Kelvinverse Spock whale on Kirk in '09 and Khan in ID.
McCoy's arguments can seem mean or even racist today, but that's not how it came across at the time. It was understood back then that TV characters had very thick skins, and they weren't getting hurt. TV was more theatrical and less analytical back then.
Two examples:
• On The Dick Van Dyke Show, Buddy insulted Mel relentlessly, and it was always personal, but the audience took it as a good laugh. As for Mel, life went on.
• Don West on Lost in Space was constantly grabbing Smith, raising a fist, threatening to beat the hell out him. When the show is seen now, women often hate Don. But back then, he was supposed to be seen as a macho hothead whose heart was in the right place. He was defending the tribe.
Our evolving expectations have caused TV to change.
I'll add more:
• On Gunsmoke, Doc Adams and Festus have loud arguments where they snap at, criticize, and insult each other, but deep down, they're still friends who would take a bullet (quite literally) for each other, if necessary.
• On The Flintstones, Fred does and says all kinds of things to Barney, but they always make up in the end.
Some friendships can handle this kind of back-and-forth, because both parties involved are fully aware that the other person cares about them. To outsiders, it looks toxic, but they don't see the context.
I suppose Spock regards it as a learning experience, while McCoy sees it as a challenge.
• On Gunsmoke, Doc Adams and Festus have loud arguments where they snap at, criticize, and insult each other, but deep down, they're still friends who would take a bullet (quite literally) for each other, if necessary.
• On The Flintstones, Fred does and says all kinds of things to Barney, but they always make up in the end.
Some friendships can handle this kind of back-and-forth, because both parties involved are fully aware that the other person cares about them. To outsiders, it looks toxic, but they don't see the context.
I suppose Spock regards it as a learning experience, while McCoy sees it as a challenge.
See also Monk and Ham in the Doc Savage pulps. LOTS of vicious insults back and forth, but they'll lay down their lives for each other.
I always thought Spock's comment in Immunity Syndrome -- "This is not the first time superior capability has proven more valuable than professional credentials" -- was nastier than anything McCoy ever said to Spock.
Eh, agree to disagree. Like I said, I do think that what you are describing is what their relationship is like the vast majority of the time. It's not usually malicious. Of course they do actually like and care about each other. But I stand by the idea that McCoy pushed it too far sometimes. Accusing Spock of wanting Kirk's captaincy in Tholian Web, for example, wasn't playful banter- he was lashing out.
Yeah, he does cross the line at times. I suppose it's to Spock's credit that McCoy doesn't get written up, just one-upped.
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