Spock gets an autobiography!

[Christopher]

Personally, I read it that way because I enjoy it being Spock's different approach to legacy. McCoy has Joanna, Kirk has David and Spock has someone who he (in the Pandora Principle) defends and gives the care they deserve whilst helping deal with their mixed heritage. It is both what he didn't get and is a nice culmination of all of Spock's growth from TOS to the TMP era in the same way David represents Kirk's pattern of abandonment. Likewise in TWOK she's presented along with David as part of the next generation as our main cast are now no longer in their prime. David is explicitly Kirk's son but I don't think it's too much of a leap to see Saavik in TWOK as occupying the role of Spock's (figurative, not literal) daughter type figure. So that's why I prefer to read it as like a father-daughter relationship.

Okay, maybe. But that doesn't make Saavik his literal adopted daughter, which is what ThetaSigma (any relation?) claimed they were.

I would also add that it does become creepier given Spock found Saavik as a child and there's a vast age gap.

It's not vast at all. In Vulcan's Heart, Spock and Saavik marry in 2339, more than 50 years after The Wrath of Khan. If we go by The Pandora Principle's birthdate for Saavik, she'd be 75 years old at the time and Spock would be 109. So they differ in age by only 30 percent, and it's akin to, say, a 54-year-old man marrying a 37-year-old woman -- not too far off from Leonard Nimoy's second marriage, in which he was 58 and his wife was 46.

And yes, he found her as a child, but that was 65 years earlier!! Surely that's become just a small part of their history by that point, long since eclipsed by their decades of interaction as adults. It's condescending and sexist to treat Saavik as if she's still a child at that age. She's a grown woman and perfectly capable of marrying whoever she damn well pleases. So what if she was a child decades before? Everybody was! Who she is at the time of the marriage is all that matters.

 

[theta_campanile]

Okay, maybe. But that doesn't make Saavik his literal adopted daughter, which is what ThetaSigma (any relation?) claimed they were.

Yes, I backed you up on that point in my posts. But I was responding to:

The idea of Spock and Saavik as "father and daughter" is very surprising to me.

I assumed this was questioning how I could read it as a father/daughter relationship so I explained how. Sorry if I misread.

(any relation?) claimed they were

If you're unaware theta sigma is a nickname for the Doctor, whilst ThetaSigma has added it all in, I've chosen to reference one of my favourite historical bell towers, Giotto's Campanile in my username. Who knows of course, they may be mirror universe/first splinter timeline me?

It's condescending and sexist to treat Saavik as if she's still a child at that age. She's a grown woman and perfectly capable of marrying whoever she damn well pleases. So what if she was a child decades before? Everybody was! Who she is at the time of the marriage is all that matters.

I really don't think this is fair and completely reject the idea that I'm condescending and sexist. I'm not trying to deny Saavik's agency. Her being a child when Spock saved her, the age gap in the real world and the hero worship she has had for him since she was a child would contribute to an unhealthy power dynamic between the two. I also think there's a bit of dodgy, possibly unintentional, subtext of getting with Saavik being a reward for Spock doing the moral thing.

In the real world that's for consenting adults to decide and is only a warning for how those relationships can be potentially unhealthy. I just don't think the authors dealt with those issues with the relationship with the seriousness or complexity they deserved and that aspect of the work of fiction makes me uncomfortable. And I'd add that sci-fi fandom as a whole has a male gaze problem with approaches to women, sex and sexual favours. Whilst most, but not all, of the authors I can think of who worked on Saavik stories are women, I fear the works help, in their own very small way, contributed to that. Sorry if any of that is unclear, I've redrafted this a few times and I'm not sure I explained myself well.

Finally, like most people who read Saavik and Spock as having a father/daughter relationship it's pretty obvious why I'd be uncomfortable with them getting married even if I had no other issues.

 

[ThetaSigma]

Okay, maybe. But that doesn't make Saavik his literal adopted daughter, which is what ThetaSigma (any relation?) claimed they were.




It's not vast at all. In Vulcan's Heart, Spock and Saavik marry in 2339, more than 50 years after The Wrath of Khan. If we go by The Pandora Principle's birthdate for Saavik, she'd be 75 years old at the time and Spock would be 109. So they differ in age by only 30 percent, and it's akin to, say, a 54-year-old man marrying a 37-year-old woman -- not too far off from Leonard Nimoy's second marriage, in which he was 58 and his wife was 46.

And yes, he found her as a child, but that was 65 years earlier!! Surely that's become just a small part of their history by that point, long since eclipsed by their decades of interaction as adults. It's condescending and sexist to treat Saavik as if she's still a child at that age. She's a grown woman and perfectly capable of marrying whoever she damn well pleases. So what if she was a child decades before? Everybody was! Who she is at the time of the marriage is all that matters.

No relation, just coincidence, but the way Star Trek II uses them the adopted daughter backstory may only be implied but I always thought clear.

Besides whoever he married is clearly deceased by the time of TNG

 

[theta_campanile]

Besides whoever he married is clearly deceased by the time of TNG

Is there any evidence to suggest this? Yes Spock has been underground for a while but why would that preclude his wife still being alive?

 

[Christopher]

I'm not trying to deny Saavik's agency. Her being a child when Spock saved her, the age gap in the real world and the hero worship she has had for him since she was a child would contribute to an unhealthy power dynamic between the two.

"Would?" No. "Could." It's not inevitable. Too many people misunderstand this. The reason there are laws and customs against certain things are because some people acting in bad faith can abuse them, and the only way to prevent them from doing it is to prevent everyone from doing it. It doesn't mean that every single person in existence will automatically succumb to the darkest temptation when given the opportunity. It's ridiculous to expect that Spock of all people would take advantage of any unhealthy dynamic. All people are not potential abusers. Most people aren't. The rules exist to contain the few who are. They shouldn't be used to stigmatize everyone else. It's a horrible thing to default to assuming the worst about everyone.

And again, I don't think you're considering how much of a difference it would make that they get married 65 years after Spock saved her as a child. I just don't think it makes any sense to assume that the relationship that far down the road would still be influenced in any significant way by how it started 2/3 of a century before. Their shared experiences as adults would vastly outnumber and outweigh whatever they shared in Saavik's youth.

After all, power dynamics between people do not remain constant and unchanging throughout all time. It's a universal expectation that children will become adults and equal or surpass their parents, and that eventually it's the adult children who will have the superior position in the power dynamic with their elderly parents. Similarly, sometimes a person who was in a subordinate position in a professional relationship will get promoted and end up in a higher position. Power hierarchies can change over time. The past does not dictate the present.

 

[ThetaSigma]

Is there any evidence to suggest this? Yes Spock has been underground for a while but why would that preclude his wife still being alive?

From my previous post

Hell to be honest I was always under the impression that his wife was dead by the time of TNG. given that when he shows up on Romulus they asks Jean Luc to go after him and Picard decides to ask his Dad if he knows anything despite being at his wedding, nor does he ask the Admiral if his wife has said anything or been taken into custody/brought in for questioning. All of which lead to suspect he married a human who has since died, whether that’s Christine Chapel/Nyota Uhura/Leila Kalomi etc.

Whoever he married is clearly out of the picture by TNG

 

[theta_campanile]

"Would?" No. "Could." It's not inevitable. Too many people misunderstand this. The reason there are laws and customs against certain things are because some people acting in bad faith can abuse them, and the only way to prevent them from doing it is to prevent everyone from doing it. It doesn't mean that every single person in existence will automatically succumb to the darkest temptation when given the opportunity. It's ridiculous to expect that Spock of all people would take advantage of any unhealthy dynamic. All people are not potential abusers. Most people aren't. The rules exist to contain the few who are. They shouldn't be used to stigmatize everyone else. It's a horrible thing to default to assuming the worst about everyone.

First off this is a hostile personal attack and you're being quite patronising. I don't appreciate it and I don't find it conducive to discussion.

I meant to type could although I don't think all power dynamics can be turned off and I don't think all are a conscious choice. Obviously Spock wouldn't consciously abuse someone in a relationship but that doesn't stop a work of fiction making me uncomfortable. These two things aren't the same.

Saying a work of fiction makes me uncomfortable is not the same as assuming the worst of everyone.

I didn't say the relationship would be abusive. Unhealthy is not the same as abuse. This is quite a basic distinction.

Moreover, as I previously mentioned yes of course you can go oh it's been years since they met so it's fine. That's your right, I get it. But it doesn't work for me and that is, obviously, a me problem. For me it's hard to not think it's been a few years based on human ages and appearance and I can't feel like most of their time has been as adults together. Again, me problem.

 

[Ensign_Rowan_McGrath]

First off this is a hostile personal attack and you're being quite patronising. I don't appreciate it and I don't find it conducive to discussion.

I meant to type could although I don't think all power dynamics can be turned off and I don't think all are a conscious choice. Obviously Spock wouldn't consciously abuse someone in a relationship but that doesn't stop a work of fiction making me uncomfortable. These two things aren't the same.

Saying a work of fiction makes me uncomfortable is not the same as assuming the worst of everyone.

I didn't say the relationship would be abusive. Unhealthy is not the same as abuse. This is quite a basic distinction.

Moreover, as I previously mentioned yes of course you can go oh it's been years since they met so it's fine. That's your right, I get it. But it doesn't work for me and that is, obviously, a me problem. For me it's hard to not think it's been a few years based on human ages and appearance and I can't feel like most of their time has been as adults together. Again, me problem.

I think this is unhealthy to assume Saavik and Spock's relationship is toxic and unhealthy. Step back before you turn this into an endless cycle. I've seen whole boards on other sites close because certain people who post become far too irrational and erratic over a detail that was never present in their on-screen appearances nor in the novels, just supposition from the standpoint of people who haven't looked into background material or the creators' intentions and just assume the over-the-top society that is causing more division and harm than good has more positive values than negative.

 

[theta_campanile]

I think this is unhealthy to assume Saavik and Spock's relationship is toxic and unhealthy. Step back before you turn this into an endless cycle. I've seen whole boards on other sites close because certain people who post become far too irrational and erratic over a detail that was never present in their on-screen appearances nor in the novels, just supposition from the standpoint of people who haven't looked into background material or the creators' intentions and just assume the over-the-top society that is causing more division and harm than good has more positive values than negative.

I strongly doubt my view is going to see this board closed at any point. There are multiple people uncomfortable and comfortable with it but most of the time there's a discussion to be had about it and it turns out fine.

I'm not really sure what supposition you're talking about. I was actually quite clear earlier in the thread about the evidence in favour of saying Spock and Saavik would have a relationship. If you looked into the earlier posts it would be evident that I've looked into the background material.

I'd rather not be called irrational or erratic and turning something into an endless cycle when I clearly felt the discussion wasn't going in a productive direction, made that clear and left. As I said before I don't find accusations and implications of being irrational and erratic, and any other insults, conducive to discussion and it leads quickly to toxicity and recrimination.

Dare I say it, reviving an old thread is a bit more likely to cause an endless cycle.

I'm not sure what you mean by over the top society but I assume it has something to do with woke and cancel culture etc etc

 

[Avro Arrow]

I think this is unhealthy to assume Saavik and Spock's relationship is toxic and unhealthy. Step back before you turn this into an endless cycle. I've seen whole boards on other sites close because certain people who post become far too irrational and erratic over a detail that was never present in their on-screen appearances nor in the novels, just supposition from the standpoint of people who haven't looked into background material or the creators' intentions and just assume the over-the-top society that is causing more division and harm than good has more positive values than negative.

I think it's safe to say, if this board ever does end up closing, it won't be due to members' views on Spock's relationship with Saavik.

You basically posted in a thread that had been dormant for almost a month, to tell another poster what they should/shouldn't be posting. Just a reminder to please leave moderation to the board staff. If you have concerns about a post, please use the "Report" link found at the bottom of each post.