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Spider-Man (1, 2, 3)...

Warped9

Admiral
Admiral
Today the rebooted Spidey debuts, but I probably won't get to see it until the weekend. Here in Canada we have today off because of the Canada Day long weekend, but my local cinema isn't showing the movie until the evening and I have to work tomorrow.

In the meantime I thought I'd revisit the previous Spidey films which I haven't seen in some years. Unlike the previous Batman films the previous Spideys aren't connected to the new movie. But for a while now I've been hearing some sniping about the Raimi/McGuire films that I've felt might be a bit unfair.


Spider-Man (2002) *****

Peter Parker's life takes a dramatic turn when he's bitten by a genetically modified spider.

Firstly, I was juiced with anticipation for this film when I heard it was finally going to see the light of day. I had no real interest in The X-Men, but after seeing how that was treated I was hopeful the new Spidey on the big screen could work. Certainly I felt the resources were finally in place to do a like-action Spidey in a credible way.

Before the film was released there was a lot of debate about some changes Sam Raimi was making to our hero's origins and world. Some accepted the updates while others were opposed. Today we know that a radioactive spider would probably be dead rather than be able to infect someone (but in the '60s radioactivity could do all sorts of weird stuff). So the idea of Peter Parker being infected by a genetically engineered spider sounded somewhat less improbable.

The idea of Peter's web shooting ability being organic rather than mechanical also fit in with the genetically altered idea. It certainly side-stepped the question of how Peter's web shooters could hold such a copious amount of web fluid in such small wrist-strapped canisters. Of course this was a point that irked quite a few long time fans.

What made those ideas work for me is that they weren't belaboured in the film. They were just there.

The other change that some found controversial (including me) was making Mary Jane as Peter's first love rather than the original Gwen Stacy (which the reboot has reverted to). This wasn't helped by some folks not taking to Kirsten Dunst and her portrayal of MJ. I have to include myself as one of those initially. MJ in the comics was pretty much supermodel materiel and Kirsten Dunst isn't, at least not in my eyes. But upon rewatching this I reconsidered my earlier disappointment. Raimi doesn't portray MJ as a supermodel, but rather as the pretty girl next door who aspires to be an actress. And if I look at MJ in regard to how Peter Parker sees her rather than how I expected her to be then I have to say Kirsten Dunst's portrayal works just fine.

I think Toby McGuire as Peter Parker was an inspired choice in most respects. He strikes me as ideal in the role of a generally quiet and awkward young man. He really did seem like Peter Parker brought to life. That said, though, he is very much like the Peter of the original comics and perhaps not so much like a similar teenager of today.

When the film was released I was elated with it to the point of seeing it twice in the theatre, which is something I rarely do. I liked it better the second time around and I had only minor quibbles. Today I still feel much the same way.

I could go into a long drawn out analysis, but suffice to say that I found myself grinning all over again---and I mean that in a good way. I was laughing with the film rather than at it. I loved the updating of the classic Spidey costume to make it work live-action. I certainly loved seeing Spidey in action and there were scenes that still gave me a touch of vertigo seeing Spidey in action amongst the skyscrapers.

In terms of characters I really can't fault any of them. I think Aunt May was bang on and J.K. Simmons as J. Jonah Jameson was inspired. :lol:

Is the film perfect? No. But my quibbles are minor ones and they're mostly in terms of production.

When Peter first starts discovering his new powers the first scenes of him running and leaping over rooftops doesn't look right. It looks like they really should have taken another pass or two to get them right. They don't look at all natural (and this in a film showing a guy swinging effortlessly between skyscrapers). You suspend disbelief when watching a superhero film, but you still expect things to look at least realistic and those first scenes don't. After that, though, I was fine with everything else.

My second quibble is in regard to the Green Goblin's suit. Yeah, it's a superhero film, but I thought the Goblin's outfit was just too outlandish. And I really didn't care for the helmet headpiece. I can understand not going with the green and purple original comics' design, but I still think something better could have been done with the Goblin's outfit.

My final reservation is one of continuity. I still would have preferred seeing Gwen Stacy rather than MJ. It isn't a deal breaker, but I still would have liked to see it. It also would have been quite dramatic if they had followed that storyline a bit more closely. In the original (for those not familiar) it was Gwen Stacy held atop the Brooklyn Bridge and in that story she died even as Spidey tried to save her. That would have been more gutsy than what they did here.

Today we're inundated with superhero films, but in the early 2000s the pickings were a lot slimmer. Prior to Spider-Man we had the X-Men and the clutch of Batman and Superman films. Measured against those I thought Spider-Man was head-and-shoulders above them all. Spider-Man also managed what the previous Batman and Superman outings hadn't: it managed humour and light camp without going over-the-top. I still think that.

With my reservations then why a five rating rather than a four? Because even with my quibbles I still felt juiced watching this film. For me it still works.

Spidey-1.gif
 
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I only saw the first one and was pretty bored throughout most of it.
 
Unlike seeing this for the very first time it was a bit of a downer knowing that some characters we'd never see developed further here. We glimpse a really cute Betty Brant (much cuter than Kirsten Dunst) and we hear about Dr. Connors, but we'll never see much more of them. Pity.
 
Raimi doesn't portray MJ as a supermodel, but rather as the pretty girl next door who aspires to be an actress. And if I look at MJ in regard to how Peter Parker sees her rather than how I expected her to be then I have to say Kirsten Dunst's portrayal works just fine.
Spidey-1.gif

I never understood why fans were so attached to the supermodel thing myself. Sure the drawings might be nice to look at, but I think the character works MUCH better (and is much more believable) the way Raimi did it-- as just a cute, feisty, girl next door type that Peter actually has a chance with.

She doesn't need to be ridiculously hot for Peter to still be completely gaga over her (if I was that age, I'd be much more into a girl like Dunst than some generic supermodel anyway).

Plus Dunst was just really damn likeable.
 
I only saw the first one and was pretty bored throughout most of it.


I've seen all three but I've never understood the fuss over the first Spider-Man movie. I mean it's okay and the Spider-Man costume looks really good but the story is flimsy as hell.

What the fuck was Gobby's goal in this movie? I understood his wanting to take control of Oscorp back from the board of directors but he does that in the first 45 minutes. Why is he harrassing Spidey to join him for the rest of the goddamn movie? Join him for what. It doesn't make any sense. Not even by crazy standards.

Also MJ had four love interests in the course of a two hour movie. Flash, Harry, Peter and Spidey. Okay technically she has three love interests but... she's supposed to be the sympathetic girl next door? She goes through men like she goes through condoms. I kinda agree with her pathetic, drunken father, she's "Trash"! :lol: My other criticism is that Kirsten has no chemistry with Tobey. She tries like hell, making mad cow eyes at the boy but... chemistry's either there or it ain't. In the case of Kirsten and Tobey it so clearly ain't.

The VFX are pretty dated but that's forgivable because it's ten years later only... they weren't too good in the first place. The gravity is way off in the movie and Spidey looks either like a rag doll or a Stretch Armstrong action figure for a lot fo the movie. I can give it a pass because they improved on the effects in Spider-Man 2. Still pretty ropey visuals for a big budget release.

I'm not all negative about this movie. I liked Tobey Maguire as Peter Parker, he really looks like the Puny Parker of Steve Ditko's reign and that's super cool.

JK Simmons was the best thing about this movie BAR NONE! He was J. Jonah Jameson incarnate! I would have paid to see two hours of Simmons as Jonah! If they ever do a Daily Bugle tv series I'll watch it provided Simmons is that star! Did I mention I like Simmons a lot as Jolly Jonah? ;)

Rose Mary Harris and Cliff Robertson were wonderful as Aunt May and Uncle Ben. Robertson imbues Ben Parker with such dignity, warmth and wisdom that you wonder why he wasn't made a saint after his murder.

Harris was a bit hammy and over the top but that fit the atmosphere of the movie. I just love it when she slaps Norman Osborn on the hand because he tries to steal a cherry of the Thanksgiving ham. :lol:

Willem Defoe as Norman Osborn. He was a lot of fun but Jesus Tittyfucking Christ what a campy performance! He makes Nicholson in Batman look like Ledger in The Dark Knight! People sneer at how campy and over the top Gene Hackman was in Superman but compared to Defoe's Green Goblin Hackman was a model of restraint! Shit, Defoe would've fit right in with Caesar Romero, Burgess Meredith and Frank Gorshin back on the 60s Batman! Zap, Bam, Pow! Holy honey baked ham, Batman! :lol:

My wife summed up my feelings for this movie when we watched it on Friday. Do you remember the part when Gobby was getting garbage thrown on him by the citizenry of NYC? Well when we got to that part my wife turned to me and said: "I never realized how cheesy this movie was before."

"That's what I've been saying for ten looong years!"
 
These films are supposed to be a little cheesy. This is before Batman Begins required superhero films to be edgy.
 
One thing I remember discussing with friends back when these films were released. These characters (namely Peter, Gwen and Harry) are supposed to be kids in their late teens to early twenties. They're not grown adults. As such they are likely to be all over the map emotionally and in terms of maturity. And that is the way a lot of younger ones are. They act in sometimes ridiculous ways and sometimes do ridiculous things. gwen being somewhat flighty and unfocused didn't strike me as unrealistic because a lot of young women and young men can be like that.

Osborn was borderline nuts before he exposed himself to the performance enhancing drug. He was driven and in something of a panic state already when he saw his research and company going down the drain. And later it appears that members of the Oscorp board were already eager to get rid of him. The sale of the company finally gave them the excuse they wanted. Granted after Osborn kills off some of the leading board members in revenge the Goblin's motivation is questionable. He's obviously not just another crook with delusions of grandeur. He really seems to be deluded by the idea that everyone is against him and demonstrating his superiority by terrorizing them. But his goals beyond that are unclear. The performance enhancing drug also enhanced his paranoia and anger and feelings of persecution.

When you really break it down most superhero villains are driven by delusions of grandeur and resentment toward those whom they feel have wronged them, be they society in general or specific individuals. A lot of them are looking for payback and an "I'll show you" impulse carried to the extreme. I think The Incredibles pretty much nailed that even with the humorous bent.
 
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These films are supposed to be a little cheesy. This is before Batman Begins required superhero films to be edgy.
The Nolan films really moved the needle with superhero films. I like it, but some don't and it isn't the only way to do superhero films. Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns redefined how almost everyone wanted to do Batman afterward even if you don't agree with it. To some extent I think Nolan pulled back from that whereas the Burton films seemed to embrace the Miller sensibility to the character.

For the longest time sci-fi was written off as tongue-in-cheek escapism suitable only for kids, but over time we've seen that while you can still have that you can also do SF on a respectable level perfectly suitable for adults. I think we're beginning to see superheroes evolving in a similar way in live-action film. Just as SF can talk about real world ideas in a dressed up setting superhero stories can (and have) do the same thing.

Of course, sometimes it's just a fun adventure. There's nothing wrong with a bit of cheese and a touch of camp as long as it's not overdone.
 
He really seems to be deluded by the idea that everyone is against him and demonstrating his superiority by terrorizing them. But his goals beyond that are unclear.


Unclear? More like nonexistant. The fact is that Spider-Man would have been a much better movie if the villain had actually had a plan for the hero to foil.

Or rather if he hadn't accomplished his goal less than an hour in. :lol:

Let me improve the movie Spider-Man with a few good suggestions.

1. Similar to the Ultimate Spider-Man books Peter should have been bit by a spider on a tour of the Oscorp labs. The spider could have been loaded up on the performance enhancers.

2. Peter uses his connections with Harry and Norman as well as his status as a Daily Bugle employee to investigate Oscorp to learn more about his transformation.

3. Peter gets embroiled in the Goblin's plot to wipe out the board of directors, pissing him off by actually saving some of them rather than just sitting there with his thumb up his butt, watching them die.

4. The Goblin becomes obsessed on killing Spidey in order to remove his one stumbling block to retaining control of Oscorp.

5. Norman becomes obsessed with recruiting Peter after learning he's actually Spider-Man. He sees Peter as his literal brainchild as it was his invention that turned Peter into Spider-Man.

I'm not saying my ideas above are perfect. They're not. But at least they would have given Spider-Man a plot and it's characters some motivation for their actions.

As it stands the Spider-Man movie we got is a meandering mess of a movie that's saved more by it's actors and it's generally fun nature than by any real quality in the storytelling.
 
1. Similar to the Ultimate Spider-Man books Peter should have been bit by a spider on a tour of the Oscorp labs. The spider could have been loaded up on the performance enhancers.

I strongly disagree. I don't like this modern trend that everything has to be connected to everything else. Like the '89 Batman -- did it really have to be Joker who killed the Waynes? Why? Are there really only five people in the universe?
 
1. Similar to the Ultimate Spider-Man books Peter should have been bit by a spider on a tour of the Oscorp labs. The spider could have been loaded up on the performance enhancers.

I strongly disagree. I don't like this modern trend that everything has to be connected to everything else. Like the '89 Batman -- did it really have to be Joker who killed the Waynes? Why? Are there really only five people in the universe?

:guffaw:

You have a point about the 89 Batman but I don't agree with you about this. In Spider-Man you have a man developing a serum to give people super powers. In the same movie you have a kid who gains super powers. It is not illogical to link the two. It's pretty bad storytelling if you don't.
 
Spider-Man 2 (2004) *****

Peter Parker's life is a shambles and he still has to deal with Doctor Octopus.

As much as I enjoyed the first film this one is even better. Everything seems to gel here and if there's any serious wrinkle then I can't see it. This one nails it, more than the first film, that Sam Raimi gets Spidey and his world and why we love it. It also argues against sequels not being as good as their predecessors.

Note that I watched the 2.1 version that includes some footage not seen in the theatrical version. The extra scenes are nice, but they don't change the essence of what was already a good film.

Otto Octavius makes for a better villain here than Norman Osborn, primarily because we can see what his motives are. Octavius is single minded and simply wants to prove his dream. The A.I. of the mechanical arms infringes on his mind and effectively impede any moral doubts he would otherwise have. The end justifies everything and anything.

We get the sense a few years might have passed since the events of the first film, maybe about two or so, which would be in synch of the time between the two films. MJ is essentially moving on because Peter can't get his life in order. Unlike Bruce Wayne who has the means to live while being Batman, Peter has to get by like the rest of us. And his life is a wreck because of it. This film really mirrors the grief we saw Peter Parker go through in the comics. He can't seem to catch a break and he's in for a lot of heartache.

This film also isn't shy to get a bit schmaltzy to make a point, and I admit I got caught up in the feeling of kids and other folks looking up to Spidey as a hero. Once again I was grinning my fool ass off throughout this.

Production wise I didn't notice any hiccups in this one. It felt seamless and looked very polished. For me Spider-Man 2 sets the standard for any reboot to compare against, and this after a good first effort.

At this point Raimi is 2 for 2.
 
Spider-Man 3 (2007) ***

Peter Parker comes under the influence of an alien organism.

For the first hour-and-a-half this movie isn't bad and fits in with what came before, but after that it starts to get sloppy, mostly because they're' trying to cram and juggle too much into the remaining time.

Eddie Brock as Venom comes across as an afterthought where it would have made more sense to have just set him up for a followup film (assuming one were to follow). Fact is, though, I never cared for Venom as a character and I don't think he was well visualized here.

Sandman is really an easily led street crook who finds himself able to do more than he could ever have imagined. Sandman (as depicted here) is actually a tragic character, but here he's just a set piece to be moved around as needed. He's wasted and not really an interesting adversary.

Harry Osborne would have made a better centrepiece villain if they had chosen to go that route. We understood his motivation: driven by grief and rage and resentment over his father's death, further twisted and augmented by the very same performance enhancing substance that affected Norman Osborne.

Candidly it bugs me when it seems every superhero film has to unmask the hero and reveal his identity to someone. Of course it's awfully convenient when that someone usually ends up dead before they can share what they've just learned. The one exception to this was Iron Man who revealed his identity public. :wtf:

Pete, MJ and Eddie Brock all behave like adolescents in this story. Pete and MJ swing between being self-centred and insensitive and regretful to each other. Eddie just acts self-centred all the way through. And like a messed up juvenile he blames all his self-made problems on someone else.

There are still quite a few good moments in this film and a lot to like, but it just gets too messy in the last forty-five minutes. The ending also comes across as open ended and leaving some of us waiting for a followup that never happens. We get another glimpse of Betty Grant and we get to meet Gwen Stacy, but sadly thats all we'll ever get because they'll never be followed up either (in this continuity).

Looking at this I really wish they had focused more on Harry and his vendetta and possibly added Dr. Connors and the Lizard into the mix. But no more than that.

After all is said and done it isn't a bad film. It's actually okay, but after two good previous outings it can seem worse than it is.
 
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