Spectre score - ripoff?

[A beaker full of death]

ok, "ripoff" is harsh. But am I the only one who finds it "borrows" a hell of a lot from Stravinsky's Petrushka?

 

[Christopher]

Lots of TV/film composers borrow heavily from classical music. Just as lots of classical music borrows heavily from traditional folk music. "Ripoff" is a word used by people who don't understand how creativity works.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Yes, I agree, "ripoff" is neither fair nor accurate. And I love Jerry Fielding. But this is certainly a case of extreme borrowing.

 

[M'Sharak]

ok, "ripoff" is harsh. But am I the only one who finds it "borrows" a hell of a lot from Stravinsky's Petrushka?

I guess I need to go back and watch "Spectre" again. I don't remember noticing that, particularly, but it's been a long time since I've seen it and I didn't know Petrushka nearly as well then as I do now.

Not too unusual, though. Holst's "Mars" turns up all over the place, for example, and there are plenty of other often-quoted works.

 

[Maurice]

Is Spectre out there anywhere? I haven't seen it since it aired on TV in the 70s!

 

[M'Sharak]

Is Spectre out there anywhere? I haven't seen it since it aired on TV in the 70s!

As a matter of fact, it is.


Edit:

beaker, you might find the opening post here interesting. There's no specific mention of Petrushka but, among other things, he says:

Fielding made references to many 20th century composers (Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Bartok, Stravinsky, Lutoslawski, Penderecki) in his work and, for instance, his “Straw Dogs” score which underwent the blatant slavic influences of Witold Lutoslawski’s “Concerto for Orchestra” especially his “Intrada” combined with Igor Stravinsky’s “L’Histoire du soldat”, especially his “Petits airs au bord du ruisseau” due to the dominant use of a frantic violin (see the analogy in “The Hunting Party”, track #4 in “Jerry Fielding Film Music”, BCD-LE 4001/02). What is less known is that Fielding was an admirer of Bernard Herrmann and Richard Rodney Bennett whose music scores were far away from his own.

 

[Forbin]

Ah, Spectre. I think Robert Culp and Gig Young were great in that.

Lots of TV/film composers borrow heavily from classical music. Just as lots of classical music borrows heavily from traditional folk music.

And then there's Carl Stalling, who borrowed from EVERYbody! Especially Raymond Scott!

 

[M'Sharak]

And then there's Carl Stalling, who borrowed from EVERYbody! Especially Raymond Scott!

And was absolutely brilliant at it. I see that there's now a Volume 2 out; I'll probably have to get it.

 

[Forbin]

And then there's Carl Stalling, who borrowed from EVERYbody! Especially Raymond Scott!

And was absolutely brilliant at it. I see that there's now a Volume 2 out; I'll probably have to get it.

Whatever you do, do NOT pop it in your dashboard player and try to drive to it!

 

[M'Sharak]

Oh, you're no fun!

 

[A beaker full of death]

beaker, you might find the opening post here interesting. There's no specific mention of Petrushka but, among other things, he says:

Fielding made references to many 20th century composers (Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Bartok, Stravinsky, Lutoslawski, Penderecki) in his work and, for instance, his “Straw Dogs” score which underwent the blatant slavic influences of Witold Lutoslawski’s “Concerto for Orchestra” especially his “Intrada” combined with Igor Stravinsky’s “L’Histoire du soldat”, especially his “Petits airs au bord du ruisseau” due to the dominant use of a frantic violin (see the analogy in “The Hunting Party”, track #4 in “Jerry Fielding Film Music”, BCD-LE 4001/02). What is less known is that Fielding was an admirer of Bernard Herrmann and Richard Rodney Bennett whose music scores were far away from his own.

Thanks! Very interesting. Of course, Hermann was largely influenced by Stravinsky too.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Ah, Spectre. I think Robert Culp and Gig Young were great in that.

Oy.
and what, no love for its writer?

 

[Maurice]

Is Spectre out there anywhere? I haven't seen it since it aired on TV in the 70s!

As a matter of fact, it is.

And here I was thinking you guys were talking about Roddenberry's TV pilot "Spectre" not "of the Gun".

Never mind.

 

[Forbin]

Likewise.

 

[A beaker full of death]

To be clear: I was talking about Spectre of the Gun.

 

[Maurice]

Ah, Spectre. I think Robert Culp and Gig Young were great in that.

Lots of TV/film composers borrow heavily from classical music. Just as lots of classical music borrows heavily from traditional folk music.

And then there's Carl Stalling, who borrowed from EVERYbody! Especially Raymond Scott!

Just to be sure it's clear to everyone, Carl Stalling quoted songs that were in the Vitaphone catalogue, and didn't write copycat melodies. When he used "Dinner Music for a Pack of Hungry Cannibals" in "Gorilla My Dreams", he's playing Raymond Scott's piece, not some ripoff of it.

 

[M'Sharak]

Is Spectre out there anywhere? I haven't seen it since it aired on TV in the 70s!

As a matter of fact, it is.

And here I was thinking you guys were talking about Roddenberry's TV pilot "Spectre" not "of the Gun".

Never mind.

Likewise.

Sorry about that.

I'm not at all familiar with that pilot so, until Forbin mentioned Robert Culp and Gig Young after my post quoted above by DS9Sega, it didn't occur to me to think of anything but the TOS episode. Then, too, a quick check following beaker's mention of Jerry Fielding in the third post cleared up any uncertainty I might have had.

 

[trevanian]

Fielding's SPECTRE OF THE GUN is like a trial run for his WILD BUNCH score; practically the same thing.

 

[Ssosmcin]

ok, "ripoff" is harsh. But am I the only one who finds it "borrows" a hell of a lot from Stravinsky's Petrushka?

Petrushka was the first classic music I ever fell in love with way back when (Riccardo Muti's version is wonderful). Of all the times I've heard it, I never made an connection to the Spectre of the Gun score. I'm not saying parts of the music aren't in the Stravinsky style (especially the tune on the piano), but none of the actual score brought Petrushka to mind at all for me. Can you pinpoint a particular part of the score I can refer to?

I can see why so many score composers use Stravinsky as a model. Petrushka is very much like a film score, more than many other classical works.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Can you pinpoint a particular part of the score I can refer to?

Sure - among other things, the big transition crescendos, as when they first appear in the old west.
I've put together these sound files of samples of the Stravinsky that stand out to me. The first is the most noticeable to my ear.

http://www.washingtonheightswarlord.com/Petr1.wma

http://www.washingtonheightswarlord.com/Petr2.wma


This one reminds me of the episode's opening:
http://www.washingtonheightswarlord.com/Petr3.wma