Some points to consider

[doubleohfive]

I've been on somewhat of a "Rewatch LOST" bender lately and have been working my way through seasons 2 and 3...

At some point, during the opening episodes of season 3 when Jack, Sawyer and Kate are held captive by the Others, Danny very angrily points out that "Sheperd isn't even on Jacob's list!"

Now, it could be that this is something Ben told him (and the rest of the others) to keep them in line, to prevent them from interfering with Ben's plan to manipulate Jack in to performing the spinal surgery, or what have you. We've seen Ben forgo the greater good / overall plans in order to satisfy his own agenda or keep his position of authority secure -- trying to kill Locke (twice!) comes to mind...

Or, it could very well be that Jack is NOT on Jacob's list at all. It could be that his being on 815 and thus the island could have far lesser importance than we think. In fact, it could be that the Sheperd referenced on the wall in the Man in Black's cave and in the light house could be referring to Christian.

Likewise, we've not seen Claire Littleton's name on any of these lists as of yet, and by the same conceit, she (as Christian's daughter) could be the "Sheperd" referenced. So could, seemingly, Aaron.

Second point: Locke, just before leaving with the Others in "Left Behind" points out that he made a case for her but that because of her past, she wouldn't be able to join them. "They're not the forgiving type," he says (or something to this effect). Later on, Kate learns she is "not on the list" because she is "flawed."

What this means, how it plays in to the overarching mythology and resolution of the series is, obviously, still to be seen but given that the name "Austen" is very notably missing from the more recent displays of our characters' names on both the Man in Black and Jacob's lists, it sure seems like she might be a wild card of some type.

Note that when notLocke attacked the Temple and killed off most of the Others, Sayid and Claire had already been turned; Sawyer was nowhere to be seen; Jack and Hurley were off at the light house/on their way back; Jin was off in the jungle still, and Sun hadn't yet made it back to the Temple with Lapidus, Ben and Ilana yet. notLocke even gives Kate the once-over before continuing on at the end of "Sundown."

So, does this mean Kate is in fact not a candidate? If not, what is her purpose on the island?

Finally, --and this may be really stretching -- I noticed while watching "The Man Behind The Curtain" that both Locke and Ben have mothers with the same name -- Emily. Is it possible that both Locke, who was seemingly pre-destined to be "special," (though that assertion seems rather dubious now that we know it was Locke himself who suggested Richard visit him as a child in Tustin), is it possible that Locke and Ben were in actuality vying for the same "position" all along?

As in, was Locke supposed to come to the island and be the leader of the Others all along, had Ben not conspired to help the Others purge the original Dharma Initiative people, thus securing his place as (eventual) leader of the Others?

 

[Starbreaker]

I wouldn't read too much into the names. They had 10 characters named Dan/Danny/Daniel/Danielle.

 

[Spot's Meow]

Good points. I think it is also possible that the lists that Ben and the others were referring to wasn't the same list that we are seeing now in the cave and the light house. Ben seems to indicate (can't remember when) that there have been several lists passed down from Jacob and that he is beginning to doubt their validity. I think it's entirely possible that Jacob was purposely feeding Ben the wrong information or that the lists were for other purposes - such as, bring these people to this location or whatever. So I'm not sure that "the list" is the same as the "lists."

Kate does seem like the weird one here, the one that doesn't fit into any group. I really don't know what her fate will be.

 

[doubleohfive]

@Starbreaker - Fair enough. I just found it interesting that these two characters who are seemingly at odds with each other over and over again had this one thing in common.

@Spot's Meow - I had thought about that too -- it's entirely possible that Jacob has in fact been misleading Ben all along. I think a very interesting twist would be the reveal that Jacob isn't really the good guy after all. Part of the problem lately seems to be that we've gotten to know the Others a lot better in the last few years, and much like the Cylons on BSG, they've now been defanged a bit. They're not quite as creepy or mysterious as they once were and it's easy to forget they did some pretty terrible things along the way.

Indeed, when Locke falls the eight stories to his paralysis in "The Incident," Jacob's only words are "I'm sorry this had to happen." Could it be Jacob knew in advance that the Man in Black would use Locke as his vessel, thereby continuing Locke's suffering? Or was Jacob simply expressing regret that despite what should have, honestly killed Locke (and thereby, effectively, put him out of his misery), Jacob still had to prolong said suffering for his own (or possibly other) means?

Lastly, Jacob, at Sun and Jin's wedding tells them their love is "special." Could this be a clue that someday they would have a baby, conceived on the island who might someday be a candidate?

 

[Jenee]

I think the early lists were to get those people (not candidates) into the temple and out of 'the line of fire'.

 

[doubleohfive]

Another point that just came to mind -- when the smoke monster killed Mr. Eko, Eko's last words to Locke (or was it the entire group?) were "You're next!"

So let's take a look... in that group that went searching for Eko in "The Cost of Living," everyone died.

Paolo and Nikki were offed in "Expose." Locke died at Ben's hands in "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham." Sayid (supposedly) died in "LA X."

On this logic, can we assume Sayid is in fact dead and that the Sayid we've been following ever since is in fact notSayid? Or perhaps that he is Sayid, but no longer innocent (the way Ben was no longer innocent after the Others healed him in the temple in 1977 -- an event we never actually witnessed)?

If this is the case, it would explain why Ben recognized almost immediately what Sayid was talking about when he came upon Sayid at the end of "Sundown." Could this be Jacob's sly master plan at work -- letting Sayid infiltrate the Man in Black's inner circle?

What do you think?

 

[Mallet]

Well the fact that the dynamite fuse went out last episode before it blew up and killed Jack (and Richard) seems to prove that Jack is a candidate. At least given what Richard said and what we've seen happen before.

The Producers have said that Kate's name was on the cave wall (and crossed out) but by accident none of the footage used showed it to the viewers. But it was there.

When Richard visited Locke as a child he seemed to fail the test Richard gave him, which possibly prevented him from going to the Island at a very early age. Locke also turned down the chance, when he was a teenager, to go to the special summer camp put on by The Others off Island people, which also might have ended up with him going to the Island decades earlier.

Maybe this is why Jacob said, "I'm sorry this had to happen." Because if Locke had passed the earlier tests or not rebelled against going to the summer camp he could have ended up on the Island without being hurt.

Then after his accident it was Abandon that put the thought into Locke's head that he should go on the walkabout, which got Locke on flight 815 and to the Island. Interestingly, Abandon works for Widmore. So it seems Widmore also wanted Locke to get to the Island in the first place. Widmore then helps Locke try and get everyone else back to the Island later on.

What is also interesting is that if Locke hadn't been in a wheelchair he wouldn't have been refused to take part in the walkabout and would have been in the middle of the outback at the time 815 crashed. So being in the wheelchair is what finally got Locke to the Island.

Not sure what all that means, or implies, but it's interesting.

 

[doubleohfive]

Interesting points to be sure. However, Jack not dying doesn't necessarily equate to his being a candidate. It may have just as well been another proviso for Richard's inability to die, or it may be that Jack still has something to do before the series ends. I don't know, I'm just saying that despite what we saw in "Dr. Linus," it doesn't necessarily mean Jack is a candidate.

I forgot that Kate's name was on the wall in the cave/that the producers mentioned that. Still, it's possible that right there is a sign that she's closer to siding with the Man in Black than Jacob. Or, as my disillusioned, Republican uncle likes to say "My vote can be bought." Maybe Kate's someone who could go either way, but when she finally makes that choice it's what will tip the scales?

The island does seem to have a way of bringing people to it, regardless of how. This would seem to fit, also, with the concept that whatever happened, happened. Desmond tried time and again to keep Charlie from dying, but the universe course-corrected itself and Charlie died. Locke may have delayed his arrival on the island, yes but you're right, it got him in the end. The same way it got Lapidus, as he and Ben discussed last week.

Definitely food for thought...

 

[Hober Mallow]

I've been on somewhat of a "Rewatch LOST" bender lately and have been working my way through seasons 2 and 3...

At some point, during the opening episodes of season 3 when Jack, Sawyer and Kate are held captive by the Others, Danny very angrily points out that "Sheperd isn't even on Jacob's list!"

There's several other instances of this as well. Patchie tells Kate she's not on Jacob's list because she's flawed, Sayid's not on the list because he's weak and frightened, and Locke's not on the list because he's angry.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

That was a different list I believe.

Actually, if you think about... they sent Hugo away. Jack wasn't on the list. So Kate and Sawyer were? or were they just pawns in a ridiculously pointlessly convoluted scheme to get Jack to do the surgery?

God, the less thought put behind trying to decipher the whole Living With the Others period of the show, the better.

 

[label]

In regards to "lists" that the Others may have referenced, we all remember that Ben had never actually spoken to Jacob and that the lists we're likely of Ben's own creation for his own purposes, right?

I mean, I suppose it's possible Richard actually received a list from Jacob and passed it on to Ben, but I find it far more likely that Ben just made things up as he went along.

 

[Jaron]

Perhaps Jacob gave Richard a list of people who aren't candidates. If there are rules against interfering with the candidates (like when Dogen was unable to prevent Hurley from leaving the Temple), then Jacob's list could be a "these are the people who you can abduct and brainwash" list.

 

[Mallet]

Yah, it is strange. Because if ben was giving out fake lists, then you would think that Richard would have something to say about it. He'd be like, "um... I never gave you that list from Jacob..."

 

[Alidar Jarok]

In regards to "lists" that the Others may have referenced, we all remember that Ben had never actually spoken to Jacob and that the lists we're likely of Ben's own creation for his own purposes, right?

I mean, I suppose it's possible Richard actually received a list from Jacob and passed it on to Ben, but I find it far more likely that Ben just made things up as he went along.

Didn't Ben say that Jacob gave him lists? I thought I remembered something like that.

 

[Checkmate]

Because, as we all know, Ben never lies. Never ever ever. Especially in order to gain an advantage over or manipulate other people.

 

[Lindley]

Ben said it to Jacob. Hardly the time one would expect a lie.

 

[Hober Mallow]

I thought Ben said that Jacob gave Richard "all those slips of paper" and Richard gave them to Ben.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Because, as we all know, Ben never lies. Never ever ever. Especially in order to gain an advantage over or manipulate other people.

Yeah, but the context here was talking about how Jacob doesn't help him. Basically, it was when Ben's power was at its lowest (short of being handcuffed and forced to dig his own grave).

 

[label]

Because, as we all know, Ben never lies. Never ever ever. Especially in order to gain an advantage over or manipulate other people.

Exactly. My guess is the list (if there ever really was one) contained whatever suited Ben's needs at the time. And given that Richard seems to be more in the dark than I thought he was about what's really going on, Ben could probably convince Richard that he was getting the names from Jacob through a dream or some-such though to my recollection they've never shown on screen whether Richard even knew about the list Ben said he had.

I thought Ben said that Jacob gave Richard "all those slips of paper" and Richard gave them to Ben.

Well, I don't remember that but I could certainly be forgetting. If Richard really did give him the names on the list then that makes even less sense unless Richard was composing a list of non-candidates and wanted to separate the candidates from the non candidates. Also, Dogen doesn't seem to know who the candidates are either as he almost had a bunch of them killed to start the season off.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

My guess is Jacob realized that putting Jack on a list right away would be a bad idea because Ben would kidnap him and Jack wouldn't figure out how to be the person he needs to be. Jacob could have given Richard a list with people like Cindy who needed to be taken in, but not necessarily as a candidate. The name that comes to my head is Eko, though. He was on a list, but the Others couldn't physically bring him in. Then he got killed by the smoke monster.