Some episodes = epic. Some = trash.

[revelated]

Focusing on the epic episodes...I mean all of the Star Treks...well, except Enterprise, of course...had epic episodes. Enterprise had one episode that stood out in my mind. But going down the list now.

To me, an "epic" episode is one where the story is just told so well that I can't help but remember nearly the entire episode even years after the fact, AND/OR there were characters whose development was so good, or their acting so good, as to stand out in my mind. Usually these are tertiary characters, not main ones. I mean we all will remember Worf and Data, and I'm sure The Doctor will be an ongoing staple in people's minds, but...well, let's just get to it.

TOS

• Hell, all of them in Season 1. The salt creature, Charlie X, Gary Mitchell, evil Kirk, Christine Chapel, Christopher Pike, the Gorn, Trelane, Khan, Ben Finney....the list goes on and on. No other Trek has managed to replicate the greatness that was Season 1.
• Season 2 wasn't bad, but it paled in comparison to part 1. The only ones that stood out were the Doomsday Machine, Apollo, M5, Spock's "Bitter Dregs", Sauron, and Nomad.
• Season 3...Here's where some of the writing got serious again. "The Way to Eden" was probably the most effective episode in the whole series. There were others that were comeplling but not like that one. It wasn't even that good of a story, it was just told extremely well and the ending was excellent. Second only to that was The Empath, moreso for the work of Kathryn Hays. It's amazing that in a 45-minute episode where the lead character doesn't say a single word that she should be so enticing and powerful in the role.

TNG

• You know, most people criticized Season 1 of TNG. And in truth, they were trying too hard to be a cleaner version of TOS. But Season 1 had its moments. "Encounter at Farpoint" is probably the best in the whole Season, and it introduced a long-standing favorite in Q. "Too Short a Season" seemed ludicrous on the surface, but it actually presented a fairly well told story. "Conspiracy" remains to this day my favorite TNG episode, that unfortunately was never properly concluded. It was campy for the time, but it had potential.
• In general, TNG is the one Trek where for some reason, the tertiary characters got more focus than the main ones. TNG also did an outstanding job of developing memorable characters using very few episodes.
• Ro Laren was barely focused on but in like three episodes, yet in those episodes she got more character development than even Riker.
• One of my favorite episodes involved a young Bajoran woman, Ensign Sito, who is first involved in a conspiracy with Wesley at Starfleet, then later sacrifices herself to help a Cardassian get home. The back story isn't all that great, but the development of her character is absolutely incredible, to the point you feel the emotional attachment at the end.
• Then there's Barclay, who basically went from a fumbling idiot who had Holodeck fantasies with Troi to...a fumbling idiot with a cult following.
• You had Keh'lar, who was seen for a grand total of MAYBE 30 minutes across the episodes she was in, brutally murdered, yet the interaction between her, Worf and Alexander is tangible.
• Later-to-be-Chief O'Brien, who wasn't even there for the first episodes, became not only a mainstay on TNG but also on DS9. Don't get me wrong - there was way too much Keiko focus. But the man has true talent, and TNG turned him from a veritable nobody to one of the team with little to work with in terms of back story.

DS9

• Deep Space NIne easily had the best overall stories of all of the Trek shows. At times it felt like an ongoing movie. It also developed what came before very well, and while there was some fan service (Trials and Tribblations), it was never overemphasized.
• Say what you will about Avery Brooks, the man can act. I'm sorry. I simply cannot imagine anyone else leading the show. He just worked. Some of the prophet stuff was a little too deep, but that wasn't his fault. He played the role perfectly.
• DS9 took a bunch of nobodys and turned them into stars. Where guys like Alexander Siddig/Siddig El Fadil had done little things here and there, he didn't really get much in the way of large roles until after DS9 (Syriana, for one). René and Nana both showed acting talent that they hadn't been able to show much of up until that point, and Terry Farrell (Jadzia) wasn't that interesting, but she did the role the best with what she was given. NIcole de Boer didn't get much of a chance since she came in late, but I was impressed with what I got. Armin Shimmerman (Quark)...well, he speaks for himself. He might have been too good as Quark.
• Other elements that were developed out in DS9 that were introduced in previous Trek series were the Maquîs, first seen in TNG, Cardassians, first seen in TNG, the mirror universe, first seen in TOS, the Trill, first seen in TOS, Ferengi, first seen in TOS, and Betazoids, first seen in TOS and VOY. Basically, Deep Space Nine took introduced ideas and expanded upon them. Not every idea was great ("the only thing that you should fear is fear itself!!"), but there was a lot of good material here.
• Tony Todd remains one of my favorite actors. He's played Kern every time we've seen him, and done an excellent job as he always does, but he was absolutely amazing alongside Avery Brooks in "The Visitor", playing an older Jake Sisko. The energy between these two great actors was so high that for a second I believed there actually was a book called "Anslem".
• We got to see music performances. You can't beat that! I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought Vic Fontaine was a real person, that's how well that hologram was written (see The Doctor and Moriarty).

VOY

• Voyager got off to a rocky start for sure. Janeway was too uptight (even her hair), Chakotay was annoying, they were picking up aliens left and right, the Maquis had attitudes...it was just irritating. But then they started to get their stride in the middle of the series.
• Kes was annoying to a lot of people, but I have no choice but to credit great acting in the episode where she was taken over by the warlord. Easily one of the most memorable of the series.
• In the episode where Tuvok must train four ex-Maquis misfits (who ironically we never see again), we get to see the Vulcan knocked down a few notches by Neelix in the interpersonal skills category. This makes Neelix look a lot more valuable than he had to that point.
• Torres had a horrible look at first and didn't really stand out, but then they accentuated her female characteristics and gave her a strong personality with a pinch of sexuality. This, coupled with clear intelligence and an internal Klingon struggle, lent greatly to the show.
• The Doctor, being the one Trek character without a name, is easily the most developed of all of the Voyager crew. Considering he's just a hologram, I would put him on the same level in terms of holographic development as Moriarty...someone you actually attribute feelings and emotions too.
• My absolute favorite character in all of Star Trek has got to be Lon Suder. The episode with him retaking the ship...easily the most well written of the entire Voyager series. They took a sociopath who killed for no clear reason, melded with Tuvok to find serenity, and thrust him into a situation where he had to rely on his killer instincts to save the ship. Very well written.

ENT

• Unfortunately, the only memorable episodes on Enterprise were:
• Hoshi thinking she's disappeared due to a transporter incident, which while it wasn't really a "good" episode, it was more that Linda Park's acting in the episode stood out in my mind.
• The first time T'Pol called Tucker "Trip" in frustration over the situation of her being compelled to marry another man. You saw a human side of T'Pol that to that point was rare.
• "In A Mirror, Darkly" was a strange episode. For some reason an older Enterprise was able to break the Tholian Web yet the newer version could not - but some of the acting was really good here, especially Park and Blalock.

 

[Tiberius]

Sauron was in Classic Trek, season 2?

The Way to Eden was told well? You mean, with music?

Conspiracy was campy?

You say that TNG focussed more than any other series on teritary characters, but then you say that Ro hardly got any attention. And what about DS9? They had thousands of recurring characters. Dukat is probably the best realised villain in all of Trek.

Gotta agree with you regarding Avery Brooks' acting skill. The man's incredible. I met him in person once, a lovely guy.

Regarding your comment about how DS9 took a bunch of little known actors and made them famous, I think you can say that about most of the main actors. How had heard of Patrick Stewart before TNG? Who had heard of Roxanne Dawson before Voyager?

 

[scotpens]

Season 2 wasn't bad, but it paled in comparison to part 1. The only ones that stood out were the Doomsday Machine, Apollo, M5, Spock's “Bitter Dregs”, Sauron, and Nomad.

The song “Maiden Wine” (“Bitter Dregs”) was sung by Spock in the third-season episode “Plato’s Stepchildren.”

Season 3...Here's where some of the writing got serious again. "The Way to Eden" was probably the most effective episode in the whole series. There were others that were comeplling but not like that one. It wasn't even that good of a story, it was just told extremely well and the ending was excellent. Second only to that was The Empath, moreso for the work of Kathryn Hays. It's amazing that in a 45-minute episode where the lead character doesn't say a single word that she should be so enticing and powerful in the role.

Just about everyone agrees that the original Star Trek’s first season was its best. Regardless of Kathryn Hays’ performance, “The Empath” is generally regarded as one of the weaker TOS episodes. And “The Way to Eden” is generally regarded as a piece of crap. But, chacun à son goût.

Sauron was in Classic Trek, season 2?

Maybe he’s thinking of Sargon in “Return to Tomorrow”?

 

[Ziriath]

The first half of Conspiracy is quite slow-paced, but the second half compensates it. It has certain atmosphere, which I miss in the later seasons.

 

[Tiberius]

Campy? I don't think so. Spooky, intriguing, yes, but not campy. What specifically is campy about any part of Conspiracy?

 

[The Wormhole]

Later-to-be-Chief O'Brien, who wasn't even there for the first episodes, became not only a mainstay on TNG but also on DS9. Don't get me wrong - there was way too much Keiko focus. But the man has true talent, and TNG turned him from a veritable nobody to one of the team with little to work with in terms of back story.

"Wasn't there for the first episodes?" O'Brien was right there in Farpoint, the very first episode.

"Way too much Keiko?" Keiko was only in a handful of TNG episodes. I don't remember the exact number, but I'd be surprised if it was over 5.

Other elements that were developed out in DS9 that were introduced in previous Trek series were the Maquîs, first seen in TNG, Cardassians, first seen in TNG, the mirror universe, first seen in TOS, the Trill, first seen in TOS, Ferengi, first seen in TOS, and Betazoids, first seen in TOS and VOY. Basically, Deep Space Nine took introduced ideas and expanded upon them. Not every idea was great ("the only thing that you should fear is fear itself!!"), but there was a lot of good material here.

The Maquis were actually introduced in DS9. The TNG episode they appeared in aired after their first appearance on DS9. Mind you, when they were introduced in DS9 it was picking up on story threads laid down in an TNG episode, but as far as I'm concerned the Maquis themselves were introduced in DS9.

The Trill, Ferengi and Betazoids were all introduced in TNG, not TOS. Of course the Trill of DS9 are so different from the Trill of TNG that they might as well be a different species, and Betazoids were barely in DS9. Aside from Lwaxana Troi's appearances, the only relevant thing concerning Betazoids is when we learn Betazed was conquered by the Dominion.

In the episode where Tuvok must train four ex-Maquis misfits (who ironically we never see again),

The Bolian (Chell?) later returned in the final season.

"In A Mirror, Darkly" was a strange episode. For some reason an older Enterprise was able to break the Tholian Web yet the newer version could not

Uh, what? The MU Enterprise NX-01 was destroyed by the Tholian Web.

 

[revelated]

Sauron was in Classic Trek, season 2?

Yeah someone corrected me. Sargon is what I meant.

The Way to Eden was told well? You mean, with music?

If you saw the episode in DS9...forget the name, where the game intentionally stranded the people on that planet to build the community and get away from technology and its influences. That's what Way To Eden was doing. In that vein it did a good job...and finding a planet that looks like what Eden might look like only to have things be poisonous was a great way to end it. The episode wasn't the best, admittedly. But the story was told well for what it was.

Conspiracy was campy?

"It's not him Will!!! I'm sure of that now..."
"Doctor one does not beam down to Starfleet headquarters ARMED...."
The use of music throughout cheesed things up, especially when Riker surprised Crusher after waking up.
"It DOES like YOU!!!!"

You say that TNG focussed more than any other series on teritary characters, but then you say that Ro hardly got any attention.

No, I later said that Ro Laren got more character development in three focal episodes than Riker. I consider her a tertiary character.

And what about DS9? They had thousands of recurring characters. Dukat is probably the best realised villain in all of Trek.

Dukat was annoying. He felt forced down my throat. Eddington struck me as a better contrast to Sisko - a man who is just frustrated about the way Starfleet operates and the people in the DMZ. Also Mirror Universe Kira - the Intendant - was probably the superior on DS9 in general. Visitor has a nack for being evil.

Regarding your comment about how DS9 took a bunch of little known actors and made them famous, I think you can say that about most of the main actors. How had heard of Patrick Stewart before TNG?

You know what's funny? People who watch live plays, especially Hamlet, knew who Stewart was since the man has had more on-stage performances than most "actors" these days. He was bringing down houses when Kirk was a glint in Roddenberry's eye.

The song “Maiden Wine” (“Bitter Dregs”) was sung by Spock in the third-season episode “Plato’s Stepchildren.”

You're correct, thanks.

Just about everyone agrees that the original Star Trek’s first season was its best. Regardless of Kathryn Hays’ performance, “The Empath” is generally regarded as one of the weaker TOS episodes. And “The Way to Eden” is generally regarded as a piece of crap. But, chacun à son goût.

Too many people want their Star Trek to be like Star Wars. I don't. I like episodes that make me feel something, some emotional attachment. Anyone who says they felt nothing from "The Empath" might as well be a Vulcan.

"Wasn't there for the first episodes?" O'Brien was right there in Farpoint, the very first episode.

And he didn't have much of a role. Just another redshirt.

"Way too much Keiko?" Keiko was only in a handful of TNG episodes. I don't remember the exact number, but I'd be surprised if it was over 5.

I'm counting her presence on TNG and DS9 together. WAY too much Keiko holding back O'Brien's greatness. I mean my favorite O'Brien episode was with the Cardassian female (also known as Captain Lochley from Babylon 5) hitting on him.

The Trill, Ferengi and Betazoids were all introduced in TNG, not TOS. Of course the Trill of DS9 are so different from the Trill of TNG that they might as well be a different species, and Betazoids were barely in DS9. Aside from Lwaxana Troi's appearances, the only relevant thing concerning Betazoids is when we learn Betazed was conquered by the Dominion.

What I mean is that we learned way more about Betazoids in DS9 than we did in TNG. Same with Trill, moreso Trill.

Uh, what? The MU Enterprise NX-01 was destroyed by the Tholian Web.

I'm not talking about the Enterprise. I believe it was the Defiant? It's been a while since I watched and since we're in a power outage I can't confirm right now, but I seem to recall that they were able to basically disrupt the web somehow. I'll check it eventually. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but I distinctly recall that happening at some point.

 

[The Wormhole]

What I mean is that we learned way more about Betazoids in DS9 than we did in TNG.

Such as?

I'm not talking about the Enterprise. I believe it was the Defiant? It's been a while since I watched and since we're in a power outage I can't confirm right now, but I seem to recall that they were able to basically disrupt the web somehow. I'll check it eventually. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but I distinctly recall that happening at some point.

I think I know what you're talking about, at the beginning of part 2 the Tholians deploy a web to prevent the Defiant from leaving the spacedock, which the Defiant simply shoots through. The thing to remember is that the Defiant is a 23rd century ship going up against a 22nd century Tholian Web. The Enterprise went up against a 23rd century Tholian Web. Also, the Tholians had attacked and disabled the Enterprise before deploying the web.

 

[Tiberius]

Sauron was in Classic Trek, season 2?

Yeah someone corrected me. Sargon is what I meant.

lol, here I was thinking, "One does not simply beam into Morder..."

If you saw the episode in DS9...forget the name, where the game intentionally stranded the people on that planet to build the community and get away from technology and its influences. That's what Way To Eden was doing. In that vein it did a good job...and finding a planet that looks like what Eden might look like only to have things be poisonous was a great way to end it. The episode wasn't the best, admittedly. But the story was told well for what it was.

Paradise was the episode, and it wasn't a game. The difference is that in the DS9 ep the lack of technology was a major plot point. In Tos it was about the singing.

"It's not him Will!!! I'm sure of that now..."
"Doctor one does not beam down to Starfleet headquarters ARMED...."
The use of music throughout cheesed things up, especially when Riker surprised Crusher after waking up.
"It DOES like YOU!!!!"

With the exception of the last line, i don't think it's campy.

You know what's funny? People who watch live plays, especially Hamlet, knew who Stewart was since the man has had more on-stage performances than most "actors" these days. He was bringing down houses when Kirk was a glint in Roddenberry's eye.

But the average person walking down the street wouldn't have recognised him.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Focusing on the epic episodes...I mean all of the Star Treks...well, except Enterprise, of course...had epic episodes. Enterprise had one episode that stood out in my mind. But going down the list now.



ENT

• Unfortunately, the only memorable episodes on Enterprise were:
• Hoshi thinking she's disappeared due to a transporter incident, which while it wasn't really a "good" episode, it was more that Linda Park's acting in the episode stood out in my mind.
• The first time T'Pol called Tucker "Trip" in frustration over the situation of her being compelled to marry another man. You saw a human side of T'Pol that to that point was rare.
• "In A Mirror, Darkly" was a strange episode. For some reason an older Enterprise was able to break the Tholian Web yet the newer version could not - but some of the acting was really good here, especially Park and Blalock.

I couldn't disagree more. IMO the third season of Enterprise is Trek at it's most epic.

 

[SFRabid]

Later-to-be-Chief O'Brien, who wasn't even there for the first episodes, became not only a mainstay on TNG but also on DS9. Don't get me wrong - there was way too much Keiko focus. But the man has true talent, and TNG turned him from a veritable nobody to one of the team with little to work with in terms of back story.

"Wasn't there for the first episodes?" O'Brien was right there in Farpoint, the very first episode.

He was not Chief O'Brien in the first episode. His only other appearance in season 1 was as a security guard. When they revamped the engineering roles in Season 2 he bacame O'Brian. Some might claim that he was O'Brian in that first season but engineers don't work part time as security guards while they are waiting for a position to open.

 

[SFRabid]

I think your versioni of "Epic" is much different than mine. I never considered Charlie X epic. Maybe irritant. And season 1 of TNG trying to be a cleaner version of TOS? Isn't this the season of Tasha reflecting about rape gangs and the crew visiting planet Muscle Beach so the crew can have sex without bonding?

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Whoa, way too little ENT love going on up in here. Wait, I shouldn't act surprised. But still.

So many strong episodes in the second half. Oh well, at least you didn't hate all over VOY like so many!

 

[Nerys Myk]

You know what's funny? People who watch live plays, especially Hamlet, knew who Stewart was since the man has had more on-stage performances than most "actors" these days. He was bringing down houses when Kirk was a glint in Roddenberry's eye.

Come on, Stewart didn't join the Royal Shakespeare Comany until 1966.

 

[SFRabid]

Hmmm. Epic for me....

Epic story - TOS: The City on the Edge of Forever. The story everyone talks about and maybe the only really good time travel story.
Epic cliffhanger - TNG: The Best of Both Worlds. I remember thinking "I have to wait until next season?!?
Epic fleet - DS9: (Was it Call to Arms where they assembled the huge fleet?)
Epic ending - VOY: Endgame (ST is not known for endings. At least Voyager made it home and it lets me put a Voyager episode on the list.)
Epic battle - ENT: Countdown. Xindi fighting each other. The site of an aquatic ship falling apart due to the influence of a sphere. Not too rushed. Not too slow. My favorite Star Trek battle.

Epic episode: The Trouble with Tribbles. The episode that non-Star Trek fans remember.
Epic character: Spock - The character than non-Star Trek fans remember.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

• DS9 took a bunch of nobodys and turned them into stars.

Some of them, like ALL Star Treks, had people who weren't quite famous, sure.

But I think DS9 had the most recognizable cast of any of the shows when it premiered.
Brooks was Hawk to me and my parents (and he basically returned in DS9's 4th season), René Auberjonois had lots under his belt (King Kong and Benson are what I specifically knew him from, and despite being a comedy, Benson gave us some great acting as well), Armin Shimerman and Marc Alaimo seemed everywhere on TV, even if we didn't know the names we certainly recognized the faces, and even the semi-regulars gave us OSCAR winner Louise Fletcher.

TNG, by contrast (at least for me) had Levar Burton and Wil Wheaton.

 

[The Wormhole]

Later-to-be-Chief O'Brien, who wasn't even there for the first episodes, became not only a mainstay on TNG but also on DS9. Don't get me wrong - there was way too much Keiko focus. But the man has true talent, and TNG turned him from a veritable nobody to one of the team with little to work with in terms of back story.

"Wasn't there for the first episodes?" O'Brien was right there in Farpoint, the very first episode.

He was not Chief O'Brien in the first episode. His only other appearance in season 1 was as a security guard. When they revamped the engineering roles in Season 2 he bacame O'Brian. Some might claim that he was O'Brian in that first season but engineers don't work part time as security guards while they are waiting for a position to open.

"Some might claim that he was O'Brien in that first season?" It was made quite clear in All Good Things that the red-shirt played by Colm Meaney was indeed Miles O'Brien. Therefore, one can logically assume that the security officer played by Colm Meaney later in season 1 was also Miles O'Brien. After all, we know that security and engineering are interchangeable departments. The first thing Captain Jellico did when he took command of the Enterprise was re-assign half the engineers to security. And with his combat experience O'Brien would work out fine in security. In fact, he was in tactical when he served under Captain Maxwell and he also took over tactical when Worf left during Redemption.

 

[revelated]

Whoa, way too little ENT love going on up in here. Wait, I shouldn't act surprised. But still.

So many strong episodes in the second half. Oh well, at least you didn't hate all over VOY like so many!

My problem with Enterprise hinges around two things. First, the first season was rife with a bunch of poor attempts to placate Star Trek fans. Overacting abound. Too much fan service is definitely possible, and it was the case here.

Second, Archer himself (who no matter what he does will always be Sam Beckett to me...about to leap out of there), was made out like a superbeing, capable of overcoming any odd. Like what John Cena would be if he were in space, or what they did with Sorbo on Andromeda. That is NOT entertaining. Picard was beat down, tortured, shot, near death, heart failure...Kirk was beaten, whipped, stunned, tossed, slammed...Sisko was shot, stabbed, beaten, punched repeatedly, knocked out...THAT is what I want to see. A larger to life captain who just happens to be human. I remember one episode where Archer was getting a little knocked around, and I believe it was Silik doing the beating. Shortly thereafter, Archer is outrunning a devastating explosion and ending up safe and sound.

As for Voyager, I can acknowledge that I couldn't stand the early episodes. Way too soggy for my taste. I also didn't like having Seven of Nine forced down people's throats. But the basic writing got generally better. My only real complaint there was how easily Janeway was outwitting the Borg when Picard himself was struggling at times.

What I mean is that we learned way more about Betazoids in DS9 than we did in TNG.

Such as?

- Given the right circumstances a Betazoid may unknowingly transmit his/her thoughts and emotions to others. TNG taught us that they can do this on purpose with general thought transmissions, but never to impact a person's subconscious behavior.
- Betazed was not part of any of the major battles until the Dominion War. We knew so little about the planet until DS9, and even though not much was said, at least we learned that they tried.
- We also learned more about the planet itself. That was part of my issue with such places as the Andor and, prior to DS9, Feringinar. It's what was missing in the latter TNG episodes, is a sense of planetory exploration, to see how the planet itself is developed, which speaks volumes about the natives.

 

[revelated]

Duplicate - disregard

 

[SFRabid]

.... After all, we know that security and engineering are interchangeable departments. The first thing Captain Jellico did when he took command of the Enterprise was re-assign half the engineers to security. ...

That does not mean they are interchangable. Only that he wanted more people in security during the crisis. How many security officers know how to tune a warp drive or fix a replicator? I never heard

Captain: "Engineering, how long until XXXXX is fixed?"
Engineering Chief: "Sir, my staff is stretched to the limit. Could you send some security officers to help with the warp drive?"