Sisko's mother:

[kirkfan]

So, she was raped, right?


Her mind was taken over by that prophet, who's taking her likeness to talk to Sisko but doesn't have an appearance of her own, pretty much the same way as a pah wraith took over the minds of Jake and later of Keiko (although for the latter it managed to get rid of the spooky voice, practice makes better I guess). After that she was forced to find Sisko's father, have sex with him for a few months and once Sisko was born, the prophet (aka wormhole alien), let her go, she was probably disgusted by what happened being forced to sleep with that man she didn't love and that is probably the real cause of her death. I mean, who dies that young in the 24th century unless they want to?


What do you think?

 

[Timo]

Dunno, sounds more like an arranged marriage to me. Some people are too weak to withstand those...

Do we really know that Sisko's mother was a human being? Or was she just some sort of an apparition created for the purpose of bearing Sisko when the Prophets met Sisko in "Emissary" and decided that giving birth to him might be a good idea?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

Dunno, sounds more like an arranged marriage to me. Some people are too weak to withstand those...

Do we really know that Sisko's mother was a human being? Or was she just some sort of an apparition created for the purpose of bearing Sisko when the Prophets met Sisko in "Emissary" and decided that giving birth to him might be a good idea?

Timo Saloniemi

It's the 24th century, I seriously doubt that people could just appear out of nowhere and even get a job, without people asking questions. Even now there are many things that you can't get without proper documentation and you can't get that documentation like a birth certificate for example without a slew of witnesses (like the doctor who delivered you for example) and so on and so on... I would imagine that it would be even ten times more difficult to fake a person in teh 24th century than it is now, or even a hundred times for that matter. The changelings for instance don't created fake people to infiltrate Earth or some other place, they kill or kidnap actual people and take their place. So it's more than likely that Sisko's mother was an actual human being.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Yes and no. Benjamin is born to young Joseph and Sara. He meets the Prophets, who realize that he is the emissary they expected. They interfere in his conception by taking over Sara in order to make sure Benjamin in born. Is Benjamin Sisko born of a non-consensual relationship? No. Did the Prophets use Sara's body and sexuality to their ends in a non-consensual manner? Yes. It is another problem of quantum morality that arises with the non-linearity of the Prophets.

 

[RoJoHen]

Dunno, sounds more like an arranged marriage to me. Some people are too weak to withstand those...

Do we really know that Sisko's mother was a human being? Or was she just some sort of an apparition created for the purpose of bearing Sisko when the Prophets met Sisko in "Emissary" and decided that giving birth to him might be a good idea?

Timo Saloniemi

Doesn't she say something like, "For a short time, I shared her existence."

Keyword: shared, implying that Sarah Sisko was, at one point, a separate person until the Prophet came along and hijacked her body.

 

[kirkfan]

Dunno, sounds more like an arranged marriage to me. Some people are too weak to withstand those...

Do we really know that Sisko's mother was a human being? Or was she just some sort of an apparition created for the purpose of bearing Sisko when the Prophets met Sisko in "Emissary" and decided that giving birth to him might be a good idea?

Timo Saloniemi

Doesn't she say something like, "For a short time, I shared her existence."

Keyword: shared, implying that Sarah Sisko was, at one point, a separate person until the Prophet came along and hijacked her body.

Good call! That's exactly what she said.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Sarah Sisko was a real person.

If the prophet indeed just came and took over her body without her consent, that would absolutely be rape. It's unclear though whether it was a forceful arrangement or a symbiotic arrangement.

If Sarah Sisko had committed suicide, Sisko's dad would have said that. I think it was disease, even if that's harder to justify given what's established about 24th century medicine.

In the 24th century it'd be hard to just make a person and claim they were born on Earth, but they could just say they were born on an outlying colony.

 

[kirkfan]

Sarah Sisko was a real person.

If the prophet indeed just came and took over her body without her consent, that would absolutely be rape. It's unclear though whether it was a forceful arrangement or a symbiotic arrangement.

If Sarah Sisko had committed suicide, Sisko's dad would have said that. I think it was disease, even if that's harder to justify given what's established about 24th century medicine.

In the 24th century it'd be hard to just make a person and claim they were born on Earth, but they could just say they were born on an outlying colony.

Be that as it may, the prophet said that "she shared her existence" and that indeed implies that she was a real person. She didn't do this of her own accord. If she had she wouldn't have left Joseph and Ben to go live somewhere else after this was over. Force people to have sex against their will can't be defended by today's standards. Not by civilized people. It may have been acceptable in the past when women were treated like property, but not in a society that purports to give women equal rights.

 

[Timo]

Inserting a fictional person into the Federation might be difficult for primitive folks like Founders or Organians, but the Prophets are gods. They might either distort reality locally, or simply give birth to a "real" Sarah of their own doing and specs (but only make use of her when the time was right).

Leaving Joe is no proof that Sarah despised the time spent with him - it happens all the time without such circumstances, too. And even if it did mean Sarah hated every month or year of it, this in turn is no evidence for coercion; people may well hate things they do voluntarily, or because of various pressures that cannot be construed to be crimes of any sort.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Sarah Sisko was a real person.

If the prophet indeed just came and took over her body without her consent, that would absolutely be rape. It's unclear though whether it was a forceful arrangement or a symbiotic arrangement.

If Sarah Sisko had committed suicide, Sisko's dad would have said that. I think it was disease, even if that's harder to justify given what's established about 24th century medicine.

In the 24th century it'd be hard to just make a person and claim they were born on Earth, but they could just say they were born on an outlying colony.

Be that as it may, the prophet said that "she shared her existence" and that indeed implies that she was a real person. She didn't do this of her own accord. If she had she wouldn't have left Joseph and Ben to go live somewhere else after this was over. Force people to have sex against their will can't be defended by today's standards. Not by civilized people. It may have been acceptable in the past when women were treated like property, but not in a society that purports to give women equal rights.

Nobody's defending it if it truly were completely without her consent. I'm saying, that's not clear. Just because she wasn't in love with Joseph Sisko herself doesn't mean she didn't consent to being possessed. It was pretty clear when Kira was possessed by a prophet she was willing. Perhaps she was given the clarity of understanding why it was important she marry him and willingly accepted her role. Then when it was no longer necessary she pursued her own path.

 

[kirkfan]

Inserting a fictional person into the Federation might be difficult for primitive folks like Founders or Organians, but the Prophets are gods...

This is moot in light of what the prophet herself said about Sarah.

They might either distort reality locally, or simply give birth to a "real" Sarah of their own doing and specs (but only make use of her when the time was right)....

If they can do that then why not give birth directly to a "real" Sisko of their own doing and specs? It seems they would have uselessly complicated matters.

 

[kirkfan]

Sarah Sisko was a real person.

If the prophet indeed just came and took over her body without her consent, that would absolutely be rape. It's unclear though whether it was a forceful arrangement or a symbiotic arrangement.

If Sarah Sisko had committed suicide, Sisko's dad would have said that. I think it was disease, even if that's harder to justify given what's established about 24th century medicine.

In the 24th century it'd be hard to just make a person and claim they were born on Earth, but they could just say they were born on an outlying colony.

Be that as it may, the prophet said that "she shared her existence" and that indeed implies that she was a real person. She didn't do this of her own accord. If she had she wouldn't have left Joseph and Ben to go live somewhere else after this was over. Force people to have sex against their will can't be defended by today's standards. Not by civilized people. It may have been acceptable in the past when women were treated like property, but not in a society that purports to give women equal rights.

Nobody's defending it if it truly were completely without her consent. I'm saying, that's not clear. Just because she wasn't in love with Joseph Sisko herself doesn't mean she didn't consent to being possessed. It was pretty clear when Kira was possessed by a prophet she was willing. Perhaps she was given the clarity of understanding why it was important she marry him and willingly accepted her role. Then when it was no longer necessary she pursued her own path.

Kira was member of the religious cult created by/worshiping the prophets. It's a little strained to posit that an isolated woman on Earth would adhere to the same beliefs out of the blue. A few months after her "cooperation" was over, she died. If that was her reward, I've seen better.

 

[sonak]

I never liked this retcon of Sisko's birth, for the very reason you point out. It's very creepy to think of the Prophets doing what they did to his mom.

 

[kirkfan]

I never liked this retcon of Sisko's birth, for the very reason you point out. It's very creepy to think of the Prophets doing what they did to his mom.

Yes, the first time I heard the story, I was hoping that future details about it would make it sound less creepy, unfortunately these details never came.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I wouldn't even consider it a retcon: they are two, apparently opposing realities, that coexist, much in the same way Akorem did and did not leave "Call of the Prophets" incomplete or DS9 is a reality that is also the product of the imagination of the '50s pulp writer.

And I don't think we are supposed to believed that the Prophets are universally good. Their interests are local, protecting themselves and protecting Bajor. They require some shaming, as which happened in Sacrifice of Angels.

What I find interesting, both from the episode and this discussion, is that many people believe a deity interferes in conception, immaculate or otherwise. Mostly they would be thankful for a positive outcome: conception is compared to divine inspiration, in which the deity must intervene in order for a pregnancy to be successful. Increasingly, there are Americans who will say that a pregnancy cannot be terminated in case of rape because the pregnancy itself reflects divine work and approval. One might argue (though it would require some stretching) that the deity is interfering in the reproductive choices of women in a way that would make us uncomfortable.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Perhaps Sarah was always a Prophet (i.e. there never was a human Sarah), but kept up the pretense that she was human so Joseph wouldn't suspect anything. If, after Ben's birth, Sarah leaves and is never seen again, Joseph would never know she was anything other than human, and thus would go about his life as normal.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Kira was member of the religious cult created by/worshiping the prophets. It's a little strained to posit that an isolated woman on Earth would adhere to the same beliefs out of the blue. A few months after her "cooperation" was over, she died. If that was her reward, I've seen better.

A) A cult, really? It was obviously the mainstream religion of Bajor. How would you classify it as a cult?

B) The Prophets are capable of giving people flashes of insight whenever they feel like it, that give them a deeper understanding of their role in the big picture. Maybe they did so for Sarah Sisko.

 

[Dukhat]

Perhaps Sarah was always a Prophet (i.e. there never was a human Sarah), but kept up the pretense that she was human so Joseph wouldn't suspect anything. If, after Ben's birth, Sarah leaves and is never seen again, Joseph would never know she was anything other than human, and thus would go about his life as normal.

The problem is that the Prophets were never shown to have the ability to take on a corporeal human form. As a matter of fact, they weren't shown to have even understood corporeal linear-time beings at all before Sisko contacted them in "Emissary."

I loved DS9, but this was the one retcon (besides Bashir's superhumanity) that I absolutely hated. It completely contradicted how the Prophets were portrayed up to that point.

 

[kirkfan]

Kira was member of the religious cult created by/worshiping the prophets. It's a little strained to posit that an isolated woman on Earth would adhere to the same beliefs out of the blue. A few months after her "cooperation" was over, she died. If that was her reward, I've seen better.

A) A cult, really? It was obviously the mainstream religion of Bajor. How would you classify it as a cult?

One man's cult is another man's religion. Most people like Manichaeism in their fictions but reality is never like that.

B) The Prophets are capable of giving people flashes of insight whenever they feel like it, that give them a deeper understanding of their role in the big picture. Maybe they did so for Sarah Sisko.

They took over her body and forced her to have sex with a man she didn't choose. In our society, next to murder, this is the worst crime one can commit on a person.

Plus they aren't exactly gods, for example they can be killed, easily at that, a simple beam of technobbable directed toward the wormhole could have killed them instantaneously. Maybe someone should teach them that you don't rape a woman for your own purposes.

 

[YJAGG]

maybe she was already dead - and the Prophets kept her alive to meet their needs?