Sisko Cult on Bajor

[XCV330]

Maybe some schism of Non-Bald Siskonians who believe once The Sisko no longer had hair he had lost his cilia for communication with the prophets and ceased to be the emissary. Another split occured over the proper calculation of the Emissary's Birthday, whether it should follow the Earth calendar, Stardates, or the Bajoran calendar.

Finally entirely new sects supporting Jake and others supporting Judith as the Emissary's Heir would cause a series of religious wars that left billions dead and required the Cardassians to step in as peacekeepers.

 

[Watersluis]

Agreed, and even within a single religion (Christianity for example) there are a thousand flavours in larger and smaller streams, some of which might be so different they don't even recognise each other as being part of the same religion. Why would it be any different for Bajoran religion ?

Because it not a “religion” in the traditional sense; it's having contact and accepting aid from an alien species.

The plot tries to draw analogies with “religions”, id est unproven faiths, and reason from there, but that the Prophets exist is as a fact as that the Klingons exist.

Benjamin Sisko is a diplomat who negotiates with a foreign, sovereign power. — That is all there is to it.

 

[at Quark's]

Because it not a “religion” in the traditional sense; it's having contact and accepting aid from an alien species.

The plot tries to draw analogies with “religions”, id est unproven faiths, and reason from there, but that the Prophets exist is as a fact as that the Klingons exist.

Benjamin Sisko is a diplomat who negotiates with a foreign, sovereign power. — That is all there is to it.

I'm not sure it actually makes any difference for the aspect I was discussing- the internal divergences within a faith over centuries based on differences of interpretations over source material. The Bajoran faith is thousands of years old, but as far as I can see, there's really not that much to go by as objective proof for the existence of the Prophets anyway, at least before Sisko arrives. All the Bajorans really seem to have have at that point are these orbs that give some mystical experience and 'sacred writings'. The actual existence of these aliens is only confirmed when Sisko finds the wormhole. Unless of course the prophets gave more tangible evidence of their existence in the past to them, but AFAIK, DS9 doesn't tell us that.

 

[Orphalesion]

Once you dismiss the idea Earth has one "dominant" belief system, where do you make the cut off line? How many members or how much influence do you think a belief system should have to have to qualify? If the whole point he was making was that there was no dominant belief, then the more diverse beliefs showcased, the better.

But Earth at our present time has only about 5 world religions that are widespread and numerous enough to be called dominant (as in hundreds of millions or even billions of followers in many countries and across cultures) and the guy (forgot what he was called) just comes off as a smart Aleck for parading out everybody and their grandmother.
Plus the whole "humans are special because diversity" is cheesy and bad World building.
Since it's unrealistic that all the aliens would only have one belief system it comes off as everybody doind their task...and then the human has to be special and claims that a religion with 200k followers is just as dominant as one with 2 billions.

 

[Watersluis]

I'm not sure it actually makes any difference for the aspect I was discussing- the internal divergences within a faith over centuries based on differences of interpretations over source material. The Bajoran faith is thousands of years old, but as far as I can see, there's really not that much to go by as objective proof for the existence of the Prophets anyway, at least before Sisko arrives. All the Bajorans really seem to have have at that point are these orbs that give some mystical experience and 'sacred writings'. The actual existence of these aliens is only confirmed when Sisko finds the wormhole. Unless of course the prophets gave more tangible evidence of their existence in the past to them, but AFAIK, DS9 doesn't tell us that.

I disagree; people do not generally diverge as much about facts as they do about faiths.
The prophets have in great detail forcast many events in the past that came true, which does not happen in Earth religions, or in such a way that it is far too vague.

It is not so much a religion as it is a cult of personality around aliens that simply exist.

 

[Trekker09]

If Sisko is the only Emissary in Bajor’s history, he is unique and there could be a new version of the Bajoran religion based on his life….sort of like Christianity branching out from Judaism. Wouldn't call it a cult though.

At first, Sisko seems modeled on the minor prophet Jonah in the old testament-- reluctant to take on the identity assigned to him. Kai Opaka says his mission is to warn the prophets about the Cardassians’ plot to destroy the celestial temple; Jonah was told by God to warn the city of Ninevah of imminent destruction. Like Jonah, Sisko is swallowed up by a whale/wormhole. It’s obviously not a complete analogy, in several ways - Sisko later becomes much more of a savior figure than Jonah.

Side note - I wish the moderator would get rid of the “Avery Brooks Blacklisted?” thread or rename it. Just keeping that topic going is a slanderous insult….Same with “Jake Sisko - completely unlikeable” - makes it seem like people are here to trash DS9 instead of appreciate it.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Because it not a “religion” in the traditional sense; it's having contact and accepting aid from an alien species.

The plot tries to draw analogies with “religions”, id est unproven faiths, and reason from there, but that the Prophets exist is as a fact as that the Klingons exist.

Benjamin Sisko is a diplomat who negotiates with a foreign, sovereign power. — That is all there is to it.

Is belief in a magic man more religious than belief in aliens with advanced enough abilities to seem magic?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

But Earth at our present time has only about 5 world religions that are widespread and numerous enough to be called dominant (as in hundreds of millions or even billions of followers in many countries and across cultures) and the guy (forgot what he was called) just comes off as a smart Aleck for parading out everybody and their grandmother.
Plus the whole "humans are special because diversity" is cheesy and bad World building.
Since it's unrealistic that all the aliens would only have one belief system it comes off as everybody doind their task...and then the human has to be special and claims that a religion with 200k followers is just as dominant as one with 2 billions.

How do you decide who gets to represent one of those major religions? Who represents Christianity, is it Catholics, Evangelical Protestants or liberal Protestants? Who represents Jews, somebody more or less orthodox? Who represents Muslims, Shiites, Sunnis?

Nome of these religions are monoliths. It’s absurd to try to pick one representative for any of them.

 

[Watersluis]

Is belief in a magic man more religious than belief in aliens with advanced enough abilities to seem magic?

Not in a world where such magic exists.
If I lived in a world where sorcerers cast their spells before my eyes every day, I would not be so sceptical nor claim that a belief in them was based on faith.

 

[Orphalesion]

How do you decide who gets to represent one of those major religions? Who represents Christianity, is it Catholics, Evangelical Protestants or liberal Protestants? Who represents Jews, somebody more or less orthodox? Who represents Muslims, Shiites, Sunnis?

Nome of these religions are monoliths. It’s absurd to try to pick one representative for any of them.

That is true, the most numerous of those subsets would have to have their own representatives, but even then they'd each represent a very large number of people.
Also, if you notice, I never said there'd have to be five people, just that the only representative I'd choose would be those representing the five/six world religions.
So for example, I would have people there to represent the major streams of Christianity, but not a representative of the Old Order Mennonites with its about 80.000 members.
And for clearance, my personal faith wouldn't get a representative either according to those criteria.

Would have led to 5-6 groups of people and to dialogue like;

"These are the representatives of Christianity, these are the representatives of Buddhism etc."
Would have also been a lot more logical than just mixing them at random in that line.

 

[kkt]

Not in a world where such magic exists.
If I lived in a world where sorcerers cast their spells before my eyes every day, I would not be so sceptical nor claim that a belief in them was based on faith.

Magic that could easily be demonstrated on demand wouldn't really be magic. It would be "incompletely understood engineering" or some such.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Not in a world where such magic exists.
If I lived in a world where sorcerers cast their spells before my eyes every day, I would not be so sceptical nor claim that a belief in them was based on faith.

So it can only be a religion if it’s belief in a power you deem fictional?

It’s sure not fictional to them.

 

[Watersluis]

So it can only be a religion if it’s belief in a power you deem fictional?

It’s sure not fictional to them.

That is what most of the arguments of the U.F.P. regarding why they are not comfortable with one of their officers being a “religious icon” rely upon, and why I think it's silly.

By calling it a “religion”, the script draws certain parallels, and justifies some of the, frankness be, incompetent decisions of the flag, but in reality it's nothing more than diplomatic relations with any significantly powerful alien civilization.

Starfleet did not take kindly to Sisko's insistence that Bajor not join the U.F.P., because it was “religious”, id est unproven, but he heard that it was a bad idea directly from a civilization that was known to be able to see the future, and have Bajor's best interests at heart.

Deep Space Nine, very often uses the word “faith” to describe believing the prophets; it is not “faith” any more than believing any intelligence of one's allies hat has proven reliable in the past, especially an ally that can see the future.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Is belief in a magic man more religious than belief in aliens with advanced enough abilities to seem magic?

If one's culture allows for both possibilities, isn't it possible that both phenomenon would be interpreted differently?

The notion that people would be spooked by advanced technology seems to be based upon crass understandings of encounters between western and non-western cultures. It suggests that one interpretation of the unknown, the mystical, is the default when a culture has no concept of progress. Bajorans know about advanced cultures and near metaphysical beings (they have experienced Q), but they don't interpret all forms of advancement in religious terms. The Bajoran religious universe is very parochial. Q isn't a go's, but Sisko had become their equivalent of a God but the end of the series. Arguably, what makes one a God isn't a matter of what is or is not explainable.

 

[dupersuper]

Is belief in a magic man more religious than belief in aliens with advanced enough abilities to seem magic?

When the aliens are real and live right next to your space station...yes.

 

[at Quark's]

So, let's see if I get you.

Suppose that today, we would obtain irrefutable evidence that an entity exists that could have been acting / posing as the Christian god (or the Muslim god, or whatever). I'm not even sure what that evidence would need to look like, but that's besides the point now. At that moment, Christianity stops being a religion as such by your definition as I understand it, I can buy that. (Whether it becomes a cult or something else from that point on is a separate discussion, I think). However, to me that doesn't mean that it wasn't a religion retroactively for the last two thousand years, when there wasn't such proof.

As far as I can tell, the Bajorans were in that boat before DS9 started. Until Sisko appears and finds the wormhole, as far as I know, they don't have a shred of objective evidence these Prophets actually exist. Not even those Orbs prove that. I also know of no future forecast, done before Sisko's time, that was so specific it couldn't have been interpreted any other way.

So I still say they had a religion for many thousands of years, that might in recent years have been turned into a personality cult.

And that's assuming that the actual (non-)existence of the entity (entities) you believe in is actually essential to define it as a 'religion' or not, which I'm not even sure I agree with in the first place.

 

[dupersuper]

So, let's see if I get you.

Suppose that today, we would obtain irrefutable evidence that an entity exists that could have been acting / posing as the Christian god (or the Muslim god, or whatever). I'm not even sure what that evidence would need to look like, but that's besides the point now. At that moment, Christianity stops being a religion as such by your definition as I understand it, I can buy that. (Whether it becomes a cult or something else from that point on is a separate discussion, I think). However, to me that doesn't mean that it wasn't a religion retroactively for the last two thousand years, when there wasn't such proof.

As far as I can tell, the Bajorans were in that boat before DS9 started. Until Sisko appears and finds the wormhole, as far as I know, they don't have a shred of objective evidence these Prophets actually exist. Not even those Orbs prove that. I also know of no future forecast, done before Sisko's time, that was so specific it couldn't have been interpreted any other way.

So I still say they had a religion for many thousands of years, that might in recent years have been turned into a personality cult.

And that's assuming that the actual (non-)existence of the entity (entities) you believe in is actually essential to define it as a 'religion' or not, which I'm not even sure I agree with in the first place.

Think of it in Terry Pratchett terms. When you know gods/devils/whatever are real, you don't "believe" in them; it would be like "believing" in the postman.

 

[Watersluis]

As far as I can tell, the Bajorans were in that boat before DS9 started. Until Sisko appears and finds the wormhole, as far as I know, they don't have a shred of objective evidence these Prophets actually exist. Not even those Orbs prove that. I also know of no future forecast, done before Sisko's time, that was so specific it couldn't have been interpreted any other way.

I disagree with this part.
The orbs prove a great deal, many had “orb experiences” where they either communicate with the prophets directly, or are sent through time to experience or correct things and allowed to see the future or the past.

Abrahamic religions would enjoy quite a bit more solid foundation if such interfaces to God actually existed and allowed one to speak to the entity directly.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

For the original query, I'd love to see how it all ended up.

As for the conversation that has developed, there are times I wish I could talk to God like the Bajorans can speak to the Prophets. As a practicing Christian, I admit Deep Space Nine helped me with my faith. Major Kira is a pretty good equivalent of a Christian, I think. One of the most powerful moments for me in the series was when she told Kai Opaka in "Battle Lines" that she was afraid that the Prophets wouldn't forgive her for what she did during the war with the Cardassians. Kai Opaka's answer that the Prophets already had, and that Kira had to forgive herself was so strong to me. And watching Vedek, later Kai, Winn be the wolf in sheep's clothing was a good reinforcement of some of the lessons I learned in Sunday School to "beware of false teachers."