Exactly, according to more than one quote, early Vulcans were not peaceful or rational.
I've never heard of one of the novels that revisited the Mintakans.
Silly Idea about TWO Romulan Empires
- Thread starter USS Triumphant
- Start date
I've never heard of one of the novels that revisited the Mintakans.
Early Vulcans ARE Romulans.
The Time of Awakening might have only been two thousand years ago, but Romulans don't seem any worse than humans.
One of Christopher's Time Travel Novels bounces against the difference between Vulcans with and without the unabridged Kir'Shara (A selfhelp guidebook by Surak).
The Vulcans in Enterprise are still protovulcans half way between Romulans and TOS full Vulcans.
McCoy, who is a Doctor not a Historian, was amazed by the behaviour of the non-KirShara observing Vulcans, because it seems like he didn't know about the schism in the teachings of Surak a hundred years earlier when what it is to be Vulcan was fundamentally revised again.
The Time of Awakening might have only been two thousand years ago, but Romulans don't seem any worse than humans.
One of Christopher's Time Travel Novels bounces against the difference between Vulcans with and without the unabridged Kir'Shara (A selfhelp guidebook by Surak).
The Vulcans in Enterprise are still protovulcans half way between Romulans and TOS full Vulcans.
McCoy, who is a Doctor not a Historian, was amazed by the behaviour of the non-KirShara observing Vulcans, because it seems like he didn't know about the schism in the teachings of Surak a hundred years earlier when what it is to be Vulcan was fundamentally revised again.
Biologically and instinctually, yes.
But don't forget that at least with Duane's Rihannsu, they also spent a great deal of time and effort leading up to and during the long voyage to their new home developing a new culture of their own - some might say "artificially". Their religion, for instance, started as a sort of joke but eventually became a serious devotion for some.
So, I'd say like, maybe, 90 - 95% the same? I dunno. How much of us *is* our culture?
Bashir said there were genetic differences between Romulans and Vulcans in DS9 when they were trying to figure out why Vulcans were being turned away from a Romulan hospital on a Bajoran Moon. 
My thoughts.
Victory and Spoils.
The winner of the Time of Awakening got the spoils.
Did the winner really get an irradiated wasteland that could only support a fraction of the population it could a month earlier? Or was the winner the the people who seized a trillion trillion tons of metal, turned it into an exodus fleet, and were never seen again?
The Vulcans did not exile millions, maybe billions of Romulans... The 'war' broke the biosphere and the Vulcans were left behind, abandoned to "evolve" in a dense ever thickening cloud of radiation, which may be why Vulcans are telepathic and Romulans don't seem to be.
Vulcan propaganda is superb, no?
My thoughts.
Victory and Spoils.
The winner of the Time of Awakening got the spoils.
Did the winner really get an irradiated wasteland that could only support a fraction of the population it could a month earlier? Or was the winner the the people who seized a trillion trillion tons of metal, turned it into an exodus fleet, and were never seen again?
The Vulcans did not exile millions, maybe billions of Romulans... The 'war' broke the biosphere and the Vulcans were left behind, abandoned to "evolve" in a dense ever thickening cloud of radiation, which may be why Vulcans are telepathic and Romulans don't seem to be.
Vulcan propaganda is superb, no?
Last edited:
That's an interesting point, and I'm not trying to contradict it - I would prefer to think of it as a factor, or one way of looking at it. In history, there are often several. Duane's books said that telepathic and other powers of the mind were part of the Vulcan capabilities well *before* they reached the point of nuclear (or even more powerful) weaponry. But perhaps civilization had risen on Vulcan *before* and had already wiped itself out once, long before Surak? Perhaps leaving the environment of their homeworld behind diminished those abilities?
As far as the genetic differences go, I can think of three other explanations aside from Vulcan evolution in a radioactive wasteland (and again, it might be all four, or any combination of them): 1. Romulans have interbred with some of their conquests, and 2. Perhaps part of making themselves a distinct people during the long journey and even after settlement involved some genetic tinkering, too? (And maybe said tinkering diminished their mental abilities - and maybe that was even on purpose, given their history with the horrors of warfare involving people who had those abilities.) Or 3. Maybe Romulan scientists played a role in helping the Klingons overcome the Augment virus, and unleashed something on (some of?) their own people in the process? (Perhaps explaining the more pronounced eyebrow ridges in TNG?)
As far as the genetic differences go, I can think of three other explanations aside from Vulcan evolution in a radioactive wasteland (and again, it might be all four, or any combination of them): 1. Romulans have interbred with some of their conquests, and 2. Perhaps part of making themselves a distinct people during the long journey and even after settlement involved some genetic tinkering, too? (And maybe said tinkering diminished their mental abilities - and maybe that was even on purpose, given their history with the horrors of warfare involving people who had those abilities.) Or 3. Maybe Romulan scientists played a role in helping the Klingons overcome the Augment virus, and unleashed something on (some of?) their own people in the process? (Perhaps explaining the more pronounced eyebrow ridges in TNG?)
Well, the telepathic weapon from Gambit predates the Time of Awakening, so forget I said anything.
True, but you could still be three quarters right - like I said, Vulcan may have had a previous round of "civilization" that wiped itself out to the point of being (almost?) undetectable, and the mental powers may have come from living in the environment that resulted.Well, the telepathic weapon from Gambit predates the Time of Awakening, so forget I said anything.
(The more we find out about what ancient civilizations used to know about - batteries 1000 years ago in Iran, flight in India in the 700s, etc - the more I wonder if something similar didn't happen here. Minus the psychic mumbo-jumbo, of course.)
My theory (screw Enterprise) is that Vulcanians originally had their own name for themselves. They had their own name for their homeworld. Then humans arrived on their planet and described it "as hot as Vulcan." The nickname eventually stuck and as socially prolific as we humans are, eventually became the accented term for the planet and people.
A real world example would be Egypt. The ancient egyptians did not call their land Egypt, they called it 'km.t' (Kemet). Today, the Shoshone word for themselves is newe. But they are referred to and even refer to themselves by the word outsiders came up for them.
This would also explain why Spock would state the Vulcan has no memory of a conqueror, while McCoy would tease him by saying it was no wonder Spock's people were conquered.
It's a similar story with the Romulans. Some human charted the star system of Romulus and gave the planets the name Romulus and Remus. As evidence of an intelligent species was discovered centered in this system, that unknown species was labelled as Romulans. All other references to their political structure, i.e. Centurion, Praetor, etc. are simply plays on this Roman imagery. The Romulans have their own name for themselves and their worlds that are not Romulus, Romulans, Remus, and Remans.
I really liked the fact that in 'Who watches the watchers' we got a Vulcanoid race for a change instead of another planet full of transplanted humans. You'd think the Preservers or whoever would have been a little more even handed about things, eh? How many mirror-Earths and planets full of humans did we find? Almost one a week. There should have been more planets with Vulcan offshoots, Andorian offshoots, Tellarite offshoots, etc.
...Perhaps explored by valiant Vulcan, Andorian and Tellarite Starfleet crews, respectively?
Diane Duane goes the route where Romulus and Remus are named for their twinness by passing Earthlings, while ENT establishes that "Romulan" is an English spelling for a Vulcan version of the native name; in both cases, all the rest is frivolous embellishment on the Romulan theme, probably by the ever-mischievous Universal Translator. Which one is the more appealing origin story? I'm partial towards the latter, really, as twin worlds should be common enough in the Trek universe (Earth is one, Vulcan apparently is one), and "Romulus/Remus" should have been used up long before the flight of the Carrizal.
Both stories can be true simultaneously, of course: we know that knews traveled slowly back then, and the heroes of the Carrizal may have failed to influence the establishing of the Vulcan name "Romulans", or be influenced by it, while hitting coincidental paydirt. Heck, the UT may have subtly aided the Carrizal folks in their choice of "Romulus/Remus" over "Serena/Venus"...
Deciding that Earth words cannot be native alien names is futile anyway: there are far too many Earth words to choose from, covering all the bases already. Similarly, there is no shortage of "coincidences" in this universe when we decide on zero limiting parameters on what "counts": planet "Vulcan" may happen to have volcanoes, but is otherwise short on things tying it to Roman gods of note, British Cold War bombers, or whatever else we might want to find a connection with. It suffices to score a single random hit out of the zillions available.
Timo Saloniemi
Diane Duane goes the route where Romulus and Remus are named for their twinness by passing Earthlings, while ENT establishes that "Romulan" is an English spelling for a Vulcan version of the native name; in both cases, all the rest is frivolous embellishment on the Romulan theme, probably by the ever-mischievous Universal Translator. Which one is the more appealing origin story? I'm partial towards the latter, really, as twin worlds should be common enough in the Trek universe (Earth is one, Vulcan apparently is one), and "Romulus/Remus" should have been used up long before the flight of the Carrizal.
Both stories can be true simultaneously, of course: we know that knews traveled slowly back then, and the heroes of the Carrizal may have failed to influence the establishing of the Vulcan name "Romulans", or be influenced by it, while hitting coincidental paydirt. Heck, the UT may have subtly aided the Carrizal folks in their choice of "Romulus/Remus" over "Serena/Venus"...
Deciding that Earth words cannot be native alien names is futile anyway: there are far too many Earth words to choose from, covering all the bases already. Similarly, there is no shortage of "coincidences" in this universe when we decide on zero limiting parameters on what "counts": planet "Vulcan" may happen to have volcanoes, but is otherwise short on things tying it to Roman gods of note, British Cold War bombers, or whatever else we might want to find a connection with. It suffices to score a single random hit out of the zillions available.
Timo Saloniemi
