Silly Idea about TWO Romulan Empires

[USS Triumphant]

I absolutely LOVE Diane Duane's Vulcans and Rihannsu - but the Rihannsu are flatly contradicted by screen canon. Especially, by the Remans and "Nemesis".

Or... are they? What if the colony ships that left Vulcan were separated (something that Duane actually describes - as ships getting lost from the colonization fleet) and each set arrived in a different new home star system believing that they were the ones that survived? Each "the followers of S'task".

Each would have created a civilization based on the materials they collaboratively made during the long journey - a civilization that citizens of the other would have found at once strikingly different and eerily familiar.

It admittedly seems like a huge thing to leave out from being mentioned onscreen for the entire runs of several series that involved the Romulans - but then again, so did the Remans. And maybe it would explain another enigma - perhaps Hobus is the *home star* of the TNG Romulans, whereas Eisn was that for the Rihannsu?

Build it up, or tear it down. Like I said, I know it's silly. But be kind, and bear in mind that we *are* talking about a universe where Hodgkin's Law of Parallel Planetary Development is a thing.

 

[Tracy Trek]

A little off topic, but I always thought maybe the Mintakans in the TNG episode Who Watches the Watchers was a lost colony of S'task's followers whose descendants forgot all about their history.

 

[Nerys Myk]

There might Vulcan off-shoots on several planets "between" Vulcan and Romulas and beyond. In addition to the Minrakans, we know that a species of Rigelians are related to the Vulcans. I've even speculated that Kalandans might be as well. (Arched eyebrows!!! Weak, I know )

 

[TommyR01D]

If we followed the Rome analogy more closely we could have the larger Romulan Star Empire splitting in half after growing too large.

 

[Nerys Myk]

If we followed the Rome analogy more closely we could have the larger Romulan Star Empire splitting in half after growing too large.

Then a bunch of wannabees claiming the Romulan name.

 

[TommyR01D]

Then a bunch of wannabees claiming the Romulan name.

In real life we had the Byzantines, the Russians, the Austrians and Mussolini.

I wonder what the Trek equivalent of the Holy Roman Empire would be - some Bajor/Cardassia/Ferenginar coaltion, perhaps?

 

[Dukhat]

I absolutely LOVE Diane Duane's Vulcans and Rihannsu - but the Rihannsu are flatly contradicted by screen canon. Especially, by the Remans and "Nemesis".

Or... are they?

Going strictly by the novels (since you brought up Diane Duane), there has already been another novel, which thinly retells Duane's backstory from "The Romulan Way" but explains why the Remans look the way they do. I don't think the word "Rihannsu" is ever mentioned, but I do recall S'Task being mentioned. Unfortunately I don't remember which novel that was or who wrote it.

I used to like Duane's interpretation back before TNG premiered. Now, however, it's a bit dated. That's not to say that I like the concept of evil space Nosferatus on Remus better (I actually think it's rather stupid), but that's what we're stuck with.

 

[Jedi Marso]

When you think about it, there was a lot of great stuff in the Trek verse prior to TNG that got eradicated by TNG.

 

[USS Triumphant]

When you think about it, there was a lot of great stuff in the Trek verse prior to TNG that got eradicated by TNG.

True - but also a lot of great stuff that came from TNG, DS9, and (gods help me) even Voyager and Enterprise.

I take what I want from all of it and dismiss the rest. Thing is, I like some of *both* versions of the Romulans (and even the Remans aren't so bad if you've played a bit of STO) - and thus my silly notion in this thread.

My head-canon is made of bamboo and packed with diamonds and gunpowder.

 

[Timo]

I don't find the movie Remans showstoppers for the Duane fans, even if some things in the books do appear to require a "Duaneverse" of their own to completely fit.

Say, Duane has Remus inhabited by the same folks as Romulus. In ST:NEM: there are those folks on Remus - as guards. That there also are sub-Romulan slaves toiling there does not go against the spirit of the books much; for all we know, they were imported at some point during the two thousand years of Reman civilization that Duane describes. It's only the weird alien civilization of the UFP that decides to call the majority species of planet Remus "Remans" when every sensible Reman knows those things are little better than animals and only speak the language of the whip.

Sure, Duane also chastely describes Remus as having a "drier climate" than Romulus - but as she compares Remus directly to Vulcan, the word she's looking for might well have been "hellhole". And while there's speak of Remus having been a farming world, indeed the "breadbasket" of the pair, Duane also speaks of Romulans placing all the signs of civilization underground out of cultural habit, and of fierce industrialization in the two millennia. For all we know, the underground farms are still there, while the underground factories and mines are now peeking a little more risquely to the surface...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jedi Marso]

I think I'm going to go back and re-read the Rihannsu novels. It's been a couple decades now and I'm not even sure I got to the last couple of Duane's novels the last time around.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't find the movie Remans showstoppers for the Duane fans, even if some things in the books do appear to require a "Duaneverse" of their own to completely fit.

Say, Duane has Remus inhabited by the same folks as Romulus. In ST:NEM: there are those folks on Remus - as guards. That there also are sub-Romulan slaves toiling there does not go against the spirit of the books much; for all we know, they were imported at some point during the two thousand years of Reman civilization that Duane describes. It's only the weird alien civilization of the UFP that decides to call the majority species of planet Remus "Remans" when every sensible Reman knows those things are little better than animals and only speak the language of the whip.

Sure, Duane also chastely describes Remus as having a "drier climate" than Romulus - but as she compares Remus directly to Vulcan, the word she's looking for might well have been "hellhole". And while there's speak of Remus having been a farming world, indeed the "breadbasket" of the pair, Duane also speaks of Romulans placing all the signs of civilization underground out of cultural habit, and of fierce industrialization in the two millennia. For all we know, the underground farms are still there, while the underground factories and mines are now peeking a little more risquely to the surface...

Timo Saloniemi

It's fine to speculate, but clearly Duane had no intention of having ch'Havran (Remus) be a cold dark mining planet tidally locked and inhabited by space Nosferatu slaves and the occasional Romulan guards.

 

[Albertese]

Fior those of us with only limited familiarity with the Duane novels, would someone please list their titles? I've always wanted to actually read them, but off the top of my head, I'm not sure what all they encompass...

--Alex

 

[Dukhat]

Her two main books about both Vulcan and Romulan history are "Spock's World" and "The Romulan Way." "My Enemy, My Ally," while not about Romulan history, also shows Romulan society from Duane's perspective. Keep in mind that TNG used none of Duane's work and portrayed the Romulans as just your basic bad guys living in a totalitarian society.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The only way that the the Romulan and Roman Empires could mirror each other so well, was if there were Romulans on Earth 700 BC to 1600 AD having a laugh, or if there was an even older species with a political cookie cutter he or she used on both us and them.

 

[Albertese]

Her two main books about both Vulcan and Romulan history are "Spock's World" and "The Romulan Way." "My Enemy, My Ally," while not about Romulan history, also shows Romulan society from Duane's perspective. Keep in mind that TNG used none of Duane's work and portrayed the Romulans as just your basic bad guys living in a totalitarian society.

Okay, thank you. I know I've read two of those three, but it's been since the 90s. I'll have to track down the third and read them all again.

--Alex

 

[USS Triumphant]

Here are her Rihannsu novels, and what we're talking about are those + "Spock's World".

I also recommend her books "The Wounded Sky" and "Doctor's Orders" - but they admittedly aren't immediately relevant, aside from possible reappearance of some of the Duane-original minor characters. (It's been a while, so I can't remember if that's true or not, but I do remember that they good reads, either way. )

 

[Timo]

Onscreen, Romulans aren't particularly Roman. It's more like the UT is having fun with alien terminology by choosing a thematic translation, at complete random (in the next Mirror universe over, they were known as the Azteculans, famed for their birdlike starships and the obviously very, very Aztec way their society worked, while the Franklin Timeline had them as the Vikingulans, famed for their birdlike starships and the obviously etc.).

Except they do call themselves the Rumalin, while the Vulcans call them the Romulans. Two empires? No doubt two different vantage points would make the image split.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Guy Gardener]

A little off topic, but I always thought maybe the Mintakans in the TNG episode Who Watches the Watchers was a lost colony of S'task's followers whose descendants forgot all about their history.

I remember the line being "Vulcanoid" but that's a 30 year old memory.

PICARD: Who are studying an extended family of Mintakans at close range from a camouflaged observation post.
TROI: According to Doctor Barron's preliminary reports, the Mintakans are proto-Vulcan humanoids at the Bronze Age level. Quite peaceful and highly rational.
PICARD: Which is not surprising, considering how closely their evolution parallels Vulcan.

You're probably talking about a book, but the book ignored the script of the episode it was paying homage to.

Proto-Vulcans are to Vulcans, like Cromagnon are to Homosapien.

 

[Timo]

Of course, it makes one wonder how big a percentage of Prof. Galen's lessons Picard really attended awake if he thinks it "not surprising" that early Vulcans would be peaceful and rational...

Timo Saloniemi