Shuttlecraft

[James Wright]

Can someone tell me which class of Federation starship was the first to carry shuttlecraft capable of warp speed?
I know that the E-D had shuttlecraft that could move at warp speeds.
Were the shuttlcraft on the E-A still impulse capable as they were in TOS?
I've checked at Memory Alpha, nothing useful there.

Thank you,
James

 

[Albertese]

I don't recall any specific statement that the shuttle's on TOS were impulse-only. In fact, they are shown on screen as performing missions which would implicitly require the use of a warp drive or some sort of FTL system at any rate. I haven't actually watched enough of Enterprise to know for sure, but i bet Archer's shuttlepods were only impulse. But we can be certain that the shuttles from TOS, TAS and all the movies were warp-capable. Exception: The wedge-shaped vulcan shuttle needed an attached warp sled, and was likely not warp-capable on it's own. Prior to ST5:TFF, it was assumed that the ship carried similar craft, but since then, I think e can assume that the refit always carried them too. And they look to have warp engines.

--Alex

 

[Timo]

The new movie shows a shuttle design that is shaped quite like the TOS one, with minor detail variations only. This shuttle type was used for evacuating a dying starship's crew from what appeared to be hostile territory - so the odds are that this shuttle was warp-capable as well. At least the type had prominent warp nacelles...

The scene was dated at 2233, and is our earliest indication of warp-capable Starfleet shuttles, although the movie offers no solid proof for that capacity. TOS proof for the warp abilities of Kirk's shuttlecraft is more substantial.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

The TOS shuttles clearly had warp nacelles. I fail to see how people could ever pretend otherwise.

The Kelvin shuttles (which also had obvious nacelles) *had* to have warp drive, otherwise Nerada would have had plenty of time to recover from George's ramming and kill everyone.

Some of the nuEnterprise shuttles had warp nacelles but not all (also: watch as Kirk and McCoy board a shuttle of a different design to that they land in!).

I was mildly suprised to see a 2258 shuttle with a transporter - but those shuttles closer in size to a runabout and the NX01 transporter didn't take up more than a niche in a corridor. For all we know there was a transporter in that little room at the rear of the TOS shuttles.

 

[James Wright]

Gentlemen(snicker), you're forgetting about the Romulan Bird of Prey seen in TOS episode "Balance of Terror", it had nacelles but was only capable of moving at impulse.
In TOS episode "The Menagerie" if the shuttlecraft had been warp capable why didn't it over take the Enterprise? As it is the shuttle used so much fuel trying to catch the Enterprise it didn't have enough fuel to return to Starbase 11.
Was there any mention of a shuttle's speed in either of these episodes "The Menagerie" or " The Galileo Seven"?
Thank you,

James

 

[blssdwlf]

Keep in mind that for TOS that impulse engines have been implied to be capable of FTL. That's how the SS Valiant got out to edge of the galaxy in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and how also the Enterprise got around when her warp drive was burnt out or damaged...

Regarding the Romulans, we don't know what makes their ships go in TOS. The nacelles might've been just decorative or fuel pods. Or they could've been massive impulse engines.

As for the shuttlecraft overtaking the Enterprise, why would it or how could it? I seriously doubt any warp shuttlecraft would be able to catch an undamaged Enterprise at warp.

 

[Lieut. Arex]

Gentlemen(snicker), you're forgetting about the Romulan Bird of Prey seen in TOS episode "Balance of Terror", it had nacelles but was only capable of moving at impulse.

Really? Because it covers distances in time frames only possible if it is capable of FTL flight (@ Wf2). Scotty's line concerns "power", not the drive. A steamship and an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer might use propellers for drive, but a gas turbine engine has a lot more get-up-and-go than a steam boiler. The difference between a M/AM reactor and an impulse fusion reactor would be even greater.

 

[Albertese]

Gentlemen(snicker), you're forgetting about the Romulan Bird of Prey seen in TOS episode "Balance of Terror", it had nacelles but was only capable of moving at impulse.
In TOS episode "The Menagerie" if the shuttlecraft had been warp capable why didn't it over take the Enterprise? As it is the shuttle used so much fuel trying to catch the Enterprise it didn't have enough fuel to return to Starbase 11.
Was there any mention of a shuttle's speed in either of these episodes "The Menagerie" or " The Galileo Seven"?
Thank you,

James

Actually I don't recall there being any reference to speed in either episode. But, we do know that the Enterprise was traveling at warp speed while being pursed by the shuttle. Sure, it wasn't caught by the shuttle, but the shuttle did keep up for a good long while. Gots to have a warp drive to keep up with a warp driven starship. "Galileo Seven" doesn't say otherwise (as far as I can remember right now) but it's implied that the shuttle was very far away from the Enterprise when it got lost. Let's not forget "metamorphosis" where Kirk, Spock and McCoy are flying Commissioner Hedford to some far away place in a shuttlecraft. Obviously they were warp-speed distances away from the mothership.

--Alex

 

[Timo]

Gentlemen(snicker), you're forgetting about the Romulan Bird of Prey seen in TOS episode "Balance of Terror", it had nacelles but was only capable of moving at impulse.

Whatever the Romulan propulsive system's true nature, the episode showed that if Kirk chased at warp three, he didn't overshoot the Romulans. So once again, the presence of things that look like warp nacelles is associated with the ability to travel at warp speeds (warp three at least).

In TOS episode "The Menagerie" if the shuttlecraft had been warp capable why didn't it over take the Enterprise?

Because the Enterprise moved even faster. And in this episode, it is established that the Enterprise had been ordered to move at warp - so the shuttle probably was capable of warp one at least, or else Kirk wouldn't have chosen to give chase at all.

Was there any mention of a shuttle's speed in either of these episodes "The Menagerie" or " The Galileo Seven"?

As said, "The Menagerie" has Spock ordering the ship to warp out of orbit:

Starbase ATC: "Starship Enterprise, Commodore. It's warping out of orbit. Refuses to acknowledge our signal."

No speeds are given in the other episode, but the shuttle is lost in a region containing four star systems, and Kirk assumes the shuttle could be in any one of them. Even if the systems are very close to each other, the shuttle seems to be capable of low warp speeds or else it couldn't reach more than one system.

"Metamorphosis" also fails to give speed references. There the shuttle might be traveling between star systems, or then merely departing one star system through a hazardous asteroid belt in order to rendezvous with the ship that would complete the journey to the destination system.

In other TOS episodes, shuttles only seem to travel from orbit to surface and vice versa.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

Sorry to sound like a stuck record, but the TOS shuttle has warp nacelles. They look EXACTLY THE SAME as the ones on the Enterprise.
Who honestly believes that starfleet would build impulse engines into the exact shape of a warp nacelle? With every detail?

How is there any dispute over this?

Up next: How the transporter on the Enterprise-D was actually a food replicator made in the shape of a transporter.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: So what are you reading now? (Part 3)

I actually was a stuck record

Double post begone!

 

[Colonel Midnight]

^ Was that double post intentional? *laugh*

Just kidding!

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[F. King Daniel]

Nope. Fixed

 

[Gagarin]

Keep in mind that for TOS that impulse engines have been implied to be capable of FTL. That's how the SS Valiant got out to edge of the galaxy in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and how also the Enterprise got around when her warp drive was burnt out or damaged...

Wait, what? SS Valiant had warp drive. At least, they never said that it didn't have warp drive.

Also, there's room for the Enterprise to have remained at warp speeds after contact with the barrier and then having the crystals fail. After all, there's a fade to black and commercial break before the Captains Log...

 

[blssdwlf]

Keep in mind that for TOS that impulse engines have been implied to be capable of FTL. That's how the SS Valiant got out to edge of the galaxy in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and how also the Enterprise got around when her warp drive was burnt out or damaged...

Wait, what? SS Valiant had warp drive. At least, they never said that it didn't have warp drive.

True, the dialogue only confirmed that the SS Valiant had Impulse drive but they were the engines that battled the magnetic space storm. Also, it was far enough back in time (200 years) that it may or may not have had warp drive since Zefram Cochrane would've been about 37 years old so it could go either way whether warp drive had been invented yet when the Valiant made it to the galactic barrier.

KIRK: This is the Captain speaking. The object we encountered is a ship's disaster recorder, apparently ejected from the S.S. Valiant two hundred years ago.
...
SPOCK: Decoding memory banks. I'll try to interpolate. The Valiant had encountered a magnetic space storm and was being swept in this direction.
KIRK: The old impulse engines weren't strong enough.
SPOCK: Swept past this point, about a half light year out of the galaxy, they were thrown clear, turned, and headed back into the galaxy here...

Also, there's room for the Enterprise to have remained at warp speeds after contact with the barrier and then having the crystals fail. After all, there's a fade to black and commercial break before the Captains Log...

The Enterprise could have been at warp for a bit after turning back but it didn't last long since Spock announced that they had burnt out the main engines prior to the Captain's Log entry.

 

[Forbin]

Also in WNMHGB, one of the crew explains to the castaways how the new ships can break the time barrier. Clearly the Big E had a different drive system than the Valiant, and presumably that new drive was the space/time warp.

 

[Forbin]

And also - when Lokai stole that starbase shuttle. If it didn't have warp drive, where the hell did he think he was gonna go, and why did it take Starfleet so long to find him?

 

[Warped9]

And also - when Lokai stole that starbase shuttle. If it didn't have warp drive, where the hell did he think he was gonna go, and why did it take Starfleet so long to find him?

There's nothing in the episode to say it didn't have warp capability. And what would be the point in stealing a vehicle without warp drive? You sure as hell wouldn't get very far. The shuttlecraft had been stolen three weeks earlier. Without warp he still would have been in the system and would never have gotten into deep space where the Enterprise intercepted him.

 

[Gagarin]

Keep in mind that for TOS that impulse engines have been implied to be capable of FTL. That's how the SS Valiant got out to edge of the galaxy in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and how also the Enterprise got around when her warp drive was burnt out or damaged...

Wait, what? SS Valiant had warp drive. At least, they never said that it didn't have warp drive.

True, the dialogue only confirmed that the SS Valiant had Impulse drive but they were the engines that battled the magnetic space storm. Also, it was far enough back in time (200 years) that it may or may not have had warp drive since Zefram Cochrane would've been about 37 years old so it could go either way whether warp drive had been invented yet when the Valiant made it to the galactic barrier.

KIRK: This is the Captain speaking. The object we encountered is a ship's disaster recorder, apparently ejected from the S.S. Valiant two hundred years ago.
...
SPOCK: Decoding memory banks. I'll try to interpolate. The Valiant had encountered a magnetic space storm and was being swept in this direction.
KIRK: The old impulse engines weren't strong enough.
SPOCK: Swept past this point, about a half light year out of the galaxy, they were thrown clear, turned, and headed back into the galaxy here...

Also, there's room for the Enterprise to have remained at warp speeds after contact with the barrier and then having the crystals fail. After all, there's a fade to black and commercial break before the Captains Log...

The Enterprise could have been at warp for a bit after turning back but it didn't last long since Spock announced that they had burnt out the main engines prior to the Captain's Log entry.

Perhaps you cannot use warp drive in a magnetic storm, only impulse engines. Plenty of analogies in other Treks where they have to use impulse engines to get out of a situation.

Unless a Q picked up the ship and dropped it off near the rim, there's absolutely no way to get that far out on impulse engines.

Was it 200 years ago? Nearly 200 years ago? 170 years ago makes ZC 67 years old. And it still rounds to 200.

 

[Timo]

There's nothing in the episode to say it didn't have warp capability.

Quite true.

And what would be the point in stealing a vehicle without warp drive?

Considering how long-lived the two Cheronian clowns were, a sublight trip from star to star would be a perfectly viable maneuver for them, even if it took a few thousand years...

Was it 200 years ago? Nearly 200 years ago?

Kirk in the teaser says the ship has been missing for "over two centuries". Later he says the recorder marker they recovered was launched "two hundred years ago". That's the extent of it - but it doesn't seem to support the 170 year interpretation, as the "over" part is quite explicit. Probably we should be thinking in terms of 202 or 207 years or something like that...

On the issue of the Enterprise being within easy reach of Delta Vega after the misadventure, it could be chalked up to pure coincidence. Perhaps the galaxy is full of such automated outposts (not necessarily of Federation origin), especially at the rim, in support of an aggressive expansion program? Perhaps Kirk actually set out using Delta Vega as his "last call saloon", one of the many supply outposts that his ambitious expedition required?

Speculating further on that vein, Vega is a real star but nowhere near the outer regions of the Milky Way. Also, Vega is not a constellation, so Delta Vega should not denote the fourth brightest star in the constellation Vega. Perhaps it's just a codename? Kirk's expedition might have relied on the robotic outposts Alpha Vega, Beta Vega, Gamma Vega, Delta Vega and Epsilon Vega, all clustered near his "exit point" - and the barrier phenomenon might have spat him out within a few lightdays of the fourth of those, rather than within a few lightmonths of the second or a few lightminutes of the fifth.

If Delta Vega is a code name (or a trade name, like Dytallix B of TNG fame), then the Delta Vega outpost of STXI becomes all the more acceptable: neither the TOS nor the STXI installation is in any way related to the star Vega, and it just so happens that the Starfleet of TOS assigned that code name to a different outpost from the Starfleet of STXI.

Timo Saloniemi