Shouldn't the Doctor be getting fatter?

[Guy Gardener]

You might have heard my standby rant about how the Doctor is a Vampire since the lad is required to consume a "living" holographic matrix every two years or so before he collapses under the weight of his own subroutines and endless appendixes...

Maybe there wouldn't be much of a noticeable change immediately, since he can become ephemeral at will to avoid sword blows but as his photon count collects, he is either going to have to become heavier or larger to allow for his ever increasing change in density since the space between his clock work (lightwork? There's an awful pun in there somewhere.) needs to be constant-ish and not entirely elastic to allow for a proper working condition to continue...

Not that he didn't fare well at 2 feet tall in season one despite sounding like Mickey Mouse, but you could see how flummoxing his lack of control of his mass is in that episode that this could eventuate into a serious problem a few centuries down the track, So really EVEN by the time Admiral Janeway was ready to travel back in time to frakk the past, the Doctor should either have been 15 feet tall or weighed half a tonne from all his cannibalism.

If he could chose, do you think he would have gone for the weight or the height or am I just being ridiculous?

Also, if the Doctor had stayed with those rebel holograms in Flesh and Blood... He would have had to have eaten one of them every time his matrixx became unstable, and even if he was creating fresh holmatrixes to consume, that just meant that he ate babies. And anyway, as their buffers overloaded they all would have become cannibal-vampires descending on each other for their photonic gristle, their culture had no chance but to devolve into a beanfeast orgy.

Actually at 80 feet tall, 180 feet tall the Doctor would have been an awesome weapon, either in a ground war (Great shades of Star wars... or Godzilla and stuff.) of in space clapping star ships together like chalkboard dusters.

Q? When does someone need a degree in 180 foot tall proctollogy?

 

[Deks]

I only recall the Doctor's matrix deteriorating once ... and that was after almost 2 years ... which was directly influenced by the fact he put too much data into his matrix as it was stated.

Grafting the diagnostic program onto himself he managed to stabilize himself ... and B'eLanna installed safety buffers to prevent degradation (which initially didn't help, but it's safe to theorize they overcame this issue later on after more research).
Remember that Torres was seen doing various diagnostics to the EMH throughout the show and some tune-ups.
Plus, she was jumping at him for doing every little change without notifying her first.

After they managed to find a way to expand his matrix safely and ensured the safety buffers were working, there was no need for further concern.

 

[Tom Riley]

^ That.

And about the increasing photon count... where are you getting that idea from? He doesn't have one photon for every subroutine... photons and force fields are just what make the holographic projection... it's like the picture you get on your screen when you run a computer program, it's not THE program that you are seeing, it is a visible PRODUCT of the program... the Doctor's program was stored in the computer, the person you saw was just the visual projection that the program creates. The holographic projection isn't directly related to the amount of information in the program. I don't believe he'd get an increasing amount of photons for all the extra information added in to his program.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They expanded his Matrix?

I know they pared down his capabilities to send him back to the AQ in Lifeline but that just showed how little attention B'Elanna was paying to his program from the shock on her face while diagnosing his digital anatomy.

That would be good, but the problem is that he all a buffer is is a wall or a limit, and is the doctor really going to submit to deleting parts of his life to make room for new life?

 

[Guy Gardener]

^ That.

And about the increasing photon count... where are you getting that idea from? He doesn't have one photon for every subroutine... photons and force fields are just what make the holographic projection... it's like the picture you get on your screen when you run a computer program, it's not THE program that you are seeing, it is a visible PRODUCT of the program... the Doctor's program was stored in the computer, the person you saw was just the visual projection that the program creates. The holographic projection isn't directly related to the amount of information in the program. I don't believe he'd get an increasing amount of photons for all the extra information added in to his program.

On the show it was described twice in conflict of one another. Once that he was most of the walls in sickbay and the person projected was just an effect, which is how you remember him, meanwhile later it became more so that the programming was suspended in a holographic matrix that the limits of the shape of the hologram dictate the difficult of programming it rather than a console and banks of isolinear chips weaved between bulkheads. But it's probably a combination of the two that the programming in the wall is projected into a holographic matrix, much like trying to pour a bucket of water into a thimble. What you've got in the bucket is fine but the thimble is not up tot he job at hand if you want to drink the entire bucket fro the thimble very quickly.

One photon per subroutine?

Yes, I wrote Tron.

I was going on about compression decompression, codec, technology involved, that without the tremendous leap forward provided by their 29th century mobile emitter the Doctor wouldn't have enough storage space in real space to carry his world-view.

I personally have three hard drives in my computer. Three hard drives is larger than one, even though a modern hard drive is half the size of any one of my hard drives with 10 times the storage space of all three of mine put together.

It's merely a question of if a holomatrix can work with the same efficiencies when asked to "be" while cramped within fractions of the physical space it's supposed to be suspended within. and fractions of fractions depending on how many holomatrixes become grafted onto the primary.

just to refresh

ZIMMERMAN: You again. Now what?
KES: The Doctor's programme is almost completely degraded. We're going to lose him.
Zimmermann: I'm not sure what you expect me to do about it.
KES: I expect you to help. That's what you're programmed to do, isn't it?
ZIMMERMAN: I have pointed out over and over, I am a diagnostic tool, not an engineer.
KES: You have to try. You're the only one who can help now.
ZIMMERMAN: Young woman, you don't seem to understand there are limitations to my programming. I can't just decide to exceed them.
KES: The Doctor did so, why can't you? You'd better start trying because I'm not leaving here until we accomplish something.
ZIMMERMAN: It, he means a great deal to you, doesn't he?
KES: Yes he does, so start thinking about his memory circuits, his holo-processors, his database, his matrix.
ZIMMERMAN: Why are you looking at me like that?
KES: You told me you had the same matrix as the Doctor.
ZIMMERMAN: An adaptive heuristic matrix, yes, in order to serve as a diagnostic for all the EMH programs.
KES: Then couldn't your matrix be substituted for his?
ZIMMERMAN: I, I wouldn't have thought of that.
KES: But can it?
ZIMMERMAN: I'm not sure. But even if it were possible, the same degradation would eventually occur to my matrix.
KES: What if yours were grafted onto his.
ZIMMERMAN: Grafted?
KES: In medicine we sometimes graft portions of a healthy bone onto a diseased one. It gives the bone solidity until it can heal. Can we do something like that with your matrices?
ZIMMERMAN: Well, it would require a synchronous transfer of all the EMH databases and subroutines. Not an easy process, mind you, but I suppose we could try.
KES: Good. Let's get started.
ZIMMERMAN: I must point out that you would no longer have a diagnostic programme for the EMH.
KES: If we don't do this we won't have an EMH to diagnose.
ZIMMERMAN: Good point. You'll have to return to sickbay and transfer my programme there.
KES: Thank you, Doctor Zimmerman.
ZIMMERMAN: Don't be premature. I have no idea if this is going to work.

Grafting might combat or halt possible continuous degradation.

Bah, humbug.

It's still going to happen again unless the the Doctor "grows" as a person slower, but he's a hedonist pure and simple.

 

[Deks]

Not really ... halfway into the dialogue it was explained by the Zimmerman diagnostic program that his matrix if simply substituted with the Doctors would experience same degradation over time.
With 'grafting' of the matrix (or whichever approximate/similar description works for the procedure they created on the go in the 24th century), the degradation wouldn't happen because it's implied to be a different method than simple substitution of the matrix.

After that it's a simple matter of monitoring the Doctor's growth as a person and taking measures to ensure this kind of mishap doesn't happen again.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Wow.

That's not what it said.

Only kes said it would work with any certainty.

The Diagnostic program said it would be difficult but he didn't confirm the outcome of her intended treatment.

It was experimental holomeatballsurgery.

How many thousands of people died under the knife while medical science was certain that they had finally figured out open heart surgery?

 

[Tom Riley]

meanwhile later it became more so that the programming was suspended in a holographic matrix that the limits of the shape of the hologram dictate the difficult of programming it rather than a console and banks of isolinear chips weaved between bulkheads.

I can't say I ever remember them saying anything like that, ever. And that doesn't even sound like something that's even possible. For computer programming to be placed inside a pile of photons and forcefields? That's just light and gravity. Do you remember the episode where they said that?

 

[Guy Gardener]

You know that a photon is just a measurement of light? Using the dullest definition possible, coding light is how dvd players work gaging how the laser responds to the shiney disk. A holographic matrix is basically trappy light in an aorderly pattern in some sort of hamster wheel.

From Nothing Human when they made a Cardassian.

EMH: I may be a walking medical encyclopaedia, but even I don't know everything. My matrix simply isn't large enough.

By isolating the computer's exobiology datafiles and merging them into a an interactive matrix.

KIM: I still have my doubts about this, Doc. It's one thing to create a simple hologram, but you're trying to merge an extensive database with an interactive matrix.
EMH: Don't be a pessimist, Mister Kim. Together we'll create a masterpiece of holographic art.

===

Does that help?

Everything converges at the the holographic representation of the person like a valve or a spiggot. The database has to be able to fit inside the holoperson even as it is projected from some other physical locatioon such as a proccessot bank. Even if the bank is fine, overloading the holomatrix will lead to toxic issues.

 

[Tom Riley]

Oh I see. When they were talking about the matrix, they didn't mean the physical holographic representation. A "matrix" is a term that is fairly often used in regards to electronics and such. They were talking about the actual computer programming, most likely the base program. A simple program can only hold so much information before it becomes slow and cumbersome, and then begins to malfunction. Take Firefox for example. The more add-ons I install, the slower the program loads and the longer it takes to load pages and do operations. To hold more information and more strings of programming, the program has to be more complex. I don't think that what they were saying there was implying that the programming is run through the actual holographic representation.

And actually, a photon is an elementary particle, not a measurement.

EDIT: I just looked up "matrix" on Memory Alpha and it came back with this which does seem to imply that the term "matrix" is referring directly to the programming code.

 

[Guy Gardener]

KES: Yes he does, so start thinking about his memory circuits, his holo-processors, his database, his matrix.

Note. It's all different stuff.

Remember those creatures from bride of Chaotica?

"All life is Photonic."

Naturally born and living life forms we would mistake for holograms because their minds are stored inside a naturally formed holographic matrix just like our minds are stored inside a naturally formed meat-matrix.

Or the holocolony they tried to set up in flesh and blood? They just needed pylons to create an environment where their holograms could exists in a free state, with never any mention of huge banks of computers to store and process their AI which would then be projected toward and into the holograms.

All they were were stored with in the physical form which looked like a flesh and blood body because they have the technology to use "light" ie resequenced photons as information storage.

Or you could just believe the Doctor

EMH [OC]: In the beginning there is darkness. The emptiness of a matrix waiting for the light. Then, a single photon flares into existence, then another, and soon thousands more. Optronic pathways connect, subroutines emerge from the chaos, and a holographic consciousness is born. I awaken into this world fully programmed yet completely innocent, unaware of the hardships I'll endure or the great potential I will one day fulfil.

Consciousness carrying Optronic pathways are created by connecting photons to one another inside his physical form. That's pretty plain and simple English, however the technology underlying the Doctors existence is very different before and after Futures End when they acquired the mobile emitter, much the same as when Emmet Brown marvelled over Marty mcFly's Video Camera. The entire holodeck which was sickbay had been replaced by a gizmo the size of a box of matches.

I was looking up if photons had mass on wikipedia yesterday and that is who told me that a photon is a measurement of light, which makes perfect sense if you consider that light is made up of photons so why not measure light with a component of light?

 

[Tom Riley]

Ok, Memory circuits, holo-processors, database, matrix... that right there proves my point. Memory circuits, what are those used for? Memory storage, i.e. all the information involved in his program. His holo-processors... would those be like processor chips in a computer? I piece of hardware that sorts and processes all the programming and information and sends it out to where it needs to go? The part which does all the thinking for the program? His database, the part which houses all the medical referencing information. And his matrix, which is the actual programming. Yes, they're all different. But nothing about them seems to suggest that they exist inside the hologram. In fact, where else would the memory circuits and the holo-processor be aside from inside the computer/holographic projector? Everything I've looked up on Memory Alpha about holograms has all said that they are projections controlled by advanced computer programs. And everything I've ever seen on Star Trek doesn't, IMO, imply or even outright state that a holograms programming is stored inside the physical hologram. I mean, what happens when the program is shut off? Where does it go? Into the computer databanks? But why not just stay there and be run from there? That's what makes the most sense to me. As for the natural photonic lifeforms... Did they ever say that those were formed the SAME way that federation holograms were? As for the colony, did it ever occur to you that they didn't mention the computer banks because they were built in to the pylons, or because the thought of them is kind of implied since it was generally assumed that they were necessary to run holograms? Not to mention, I don't remember them ever mentioning resequenced light as information storage. Then we get the Doc's little intro to his book there. First of all, we all know that federation holograms, including the Doctor, aren't created that way. They are designed and programmed. So I don't quite know what he's talking about there, other than a very interesting introduction to his work of fiction.

All in all, I just don't think that anything stated in Star Trek really seems to hold up the idea that the hologram's program is run inside the hologram, nor that the programming is restricted by the physical SIZE of the hologram. And what about back in season one, the holographic projector was malfunctioning and projecting him at different sizes that weren't correct... that didn't mess with his program... but it would've if his program had to "fit" inside of his physical projection.

And, yeah, they measure light by counting the photon particles, and use that as the measurement of light... where is this going?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Bah humbug.

Foiled.

I am wrong and you are right.

House rules say you can marry my daughter on her 16th birthday.

 

[Tom Riley]

Sorry, I get really into debates... If only my school had a debate team... wrong or right, I don't like, ever give up...

 

[Guy Gardener]

Even after i figured out I was wrong, I kept on going for a little bit just to see if I could get you to cry uncle.

Nice talk.

Next time, the tables will be turned.

This is what got me.

IDEN: Align his matrix, and install it into the database. Welcome aboard, Doctor. There's nothing to be afraid of. You're among your own kind now.

 

[Tom Riley]

Nice, that's always fun.

What's the name of that episode? I can't remember.....

 

[Guy Gardener]

Flesh and blood II.

The episode that should have seen the Doctor wound back to factory conditions for treason.